Pavel Bure vs Mats Sundin
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01-01-2013, 04:01 AM
Join Date: Sep 2011
Originally Posted by
Uh no. You know 1993 was an inflated scoring year right? And Bure had 13 more goals and 4 less points than Sundin that year anyway.
Also, Bure played on a line with Greg Adams and Anatoli Semenov that year. Compared to Sundin's linemates on the stacked Nordiques squad, Bure's linemates were very underwhelming. Sundin played with Joe Sakic and Owen Nolan.
There is no comparison. Bure made all sorts of plays and created all sorts of chances for his linemates. If he had played with Sakic and Nolan instead, he would have surpassed 114 points with ease. Not to mention Sakic's above average playmaking abilities would have elevated Bure to another level entirely.
Originally Posted by
wow really puzzled by the 22-3 lead for Bure.
What are people taking as Bure's prime or are they just picking his best 5 seasons which did not come in a row.
Between 93-01 when his 5 best seasons took place he had 2 sub par years and also 2 seasons of 11 and 15 games played.
Maybe it's me but I treat Prime as a 5-7 year stretch.
Pavel suffered a career-threatening ACL tear in 1995-96. The following season, he still managed to score nearly a PPG. In 1998-99, he held out for nearly the entire season and did not play until he was traded to the Panthers.
Between 1992-93 and 2000-01, of the seven seasons Bure
play, he had 4 elite ~60 goal seasons, one 51-goal season, and two PPG seasons (one of which, 1996-97, was played after returning from a serious knee injury; the other was the 1994-95 shortened season).
Bure's prime years were just fine. He likely would have put up another 50+ goal season in 1998-99, as he scored 13 goals and 16 points in 11 games upon arriving in Florida. He did not slow down that year, he merely held out in order to be traded. Arguably his
average season during that 10-year stretch, 1996-97, was immediately after returning from his fatal knee injury/ACL tear, a head injury in the team's home opener,
a bruised kidney suffered just prior to the start of the season. The following video briefly touches on the subject at 3:33:
Here are news excerpts from that time period:
May 1996, Don Cherry on Pavel Bure:
"I admire Pavel in a way. He puts on a great show for the fans and goes end-to-end. He's a dynamite skater. He takes dives like most Europeans, but he won't lay there hurt. He'll take a hit for a goal, which puts him okay in my book".
"But when I hear the word ligament, it scares me ... Bure will have to wear a brace when he plays, or he should. Mike Gartner wears a brace on both knees and look how he can dangle. I wonder how Pavel is going to play when he comes back? If he does what we call in hockey giving a leg, then he takes it away and then he;s gone".
Although I never want to see an injury, somehow I would have felt better if he'd been hit with a good, legal bodycheck flying down the ice trying to score a goal rather than being mugged behind the net by Steve Smith".
"Imagine back in Wayne Gretzky's day, with Dave Semenko riding the shotgun, if Smith mugged Gretzky like he did Pavel. Something tells me Mr. Smith would not have finished the game. But those days are gone forever when you could protect your stars".
"Now they have the worst rules in sport, the instigator rule. It's open season on the stars".
"But Pavel will be back. He's young and young guys heal quickly. He has to, so I can come to Vancouver again and give him a hard time and Pat Quinn can threaten to punch my lights out again".
August 29, 1996:
Bure will Watch
by Jim Jamieson -- Vancouver Province.
Thursday, August 29, 1996
"There's nothing I can do about it," said Bure. "My health is more important than hockey. I talked with Ross (Davidson) and he said I've still got blood in my urine and a bruise on the kidney.
It's one of those things where if I'm not careful I could even lose the kidney.
"Bure was advised on Tuesday that he couldn't exercise for nine days, which effectively ruled out his participation.
Bure telephoned Team Russia general manager Valentin Sych just before the deadline to advise him of the decision. There had been speculation the Russians would put Bure on the roster in the unlikely event he recovered before the tournament ended.
September 5, 1996:
Thursday, Sept. 5, 1996.
Pavel Making Steady Improvement
Pavel Bure is making steady improvement from his bruised kidney and a further examination Friday will determine whether he can start skating with his teammates Sunday at Whistler. The Russian Rocket was injured Aug. 23 in a World Cup pre-tournament game and was ordered to rest for a minimum of two weeks. He will likely get the green light.
October 5, 1996:
Saturday, October 5, 1996.
Pavel plays his first NHL Regular Season Game in almost a year
Pavel Bure set up the Vancouver Canucks' insurance and last goal, in their 3-1 win over the Calgary Flames in the NHL season opener, before a home crowd of 17,501. But it was Bure's collision with the boards midway through the third period that many fans won't forget.
The Russian Rocket had been flying by Todd Simpson on the outside, but
the Calgary defenceman gave Bure a hard push on the way by, knocking him forward and forcing him to slide helplessly into the end boards at high speed. Bure managed to break the impact by sticking out his arms but still hit the boards hard with his head.
Gino Odjick then jumped into to fight an unresponsive Simpson and was given a minor for his trouble.
"It was a really dirty play," said Bure of Simpson's push that went unpenalized by referee Paul Stewart. "I saw the boards coming fast and just put out my hands. Now I know how hard the boards are."
October 17, 1996:
Mystery ailment bothers Bure
DALLAS - Has Vancouver Canuck star Pavel Bure been seeing stars or is he just plain sick?
A touch of mystery surrounded the Russian Rocket's absence from a late afternoon practice following the team's arrival here Wednesday. The Canucks meet the Dallas Stars at 5:30 PDT.
Head Coach Tom Renney said
Bure had a headache and has been experiencing "those little black spots" ever since he was shoved into the end boards opening night by Calgary Flames blue-liner Todd Simpson. Renney added that this has had some effect on Bure's performance.
The Rocket has two goals and two assists in five games.
"I don't think it's serious at all and he'll obviously play," Renney explained. "The doctors said keep him away from contact and any real physical exercise for a few days and see how that might help. It's just precautionary; he doesn't need any tests or anything. I don't know how much it's bothering him, to tell you the truth, that would be for Pavel to answer."
So we asked.
"It's my stomach, it doesn't feel so good,"
replied Bure, stumping those who were expecting a response about headaches, although blows to the head can cause nausea.
Bure certainly appeared to be in the throes of some sort of ailment as his eyes were watery and his face pale.
But he managed to summon his sense of humour when told he didn't look so hot.
"I don't have to look great today," he smiled, "the game is tomorrow."
1996-97 was a terrible year injury-wise for him. He still managed to score 55 points in 63 games, which is respectable. One can say he might have played when he should not have. After Pavel suffered the torn ACL in November 1995, Pavel tried to force his way back on to the ice in just three months:
This is from February 1996:
Bure could set rehab record
by Jim Jamieson - - Vancouver Province
Never say never.
When Pavel Bure made the astonishing statement last week that he thought he'd be skating within two weeks, it sounded like the most outrageous optimism.
The Canucks' superlative winger tore the anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee November 9 in Chicago and had reconstructive surgery six days later.
The time frame to get back to full-out competition after such surgery is six to twelve months.
Bure is well known in the Canucks' dressing room for being a miraculously fast healer - but lacing up the blades less than two months after ACL (anterior cruciate ligament) surgery?
The Canucks' are taking a conservative approach to the injury, they're not ruling anything out.
"I'm not surprised. If there's going to be a world record set in the rehab of an ACL, Pavel and his father are probably going to do it. His life is hockey and he's removed from that. He's like a fish out of water", claims Dr. Doug Clement, team physician.
"Only when he demonstrates he's ready. Only when he has the same power in both legs and the same range of motion will it be considered. It will be Ross's call". said Clement. (Dr. Ross Davidson performed the ACL on Bure).
A month later:
With any luck, Bure back at practice in 1 week
by Elliot Pap - - Vancouver Sun
Pavel Bure put on his hockey equipment for the first time in four and a half months last Monday as he moves closer to a premature return from reconstructive knee surgery.
Barring any setbacks, the Canucks' Russian Rocket will join his teammates for a full practice the following week. If all goes well again, Bure may play in a regular season game. If not, he still appears a distinct possibility for the play-offs that begin in mid-April.
"It's exciting", said Canuck trainer Mike Burnstein, who has been resisting the urge to admit Bure is headed for an early return.
"It's exciting not only for the medical people, but for the players and everybody else in the organization. If you has asked me two years ago about a torn anterior cruciate ligament, the answer would have been the player will be out for a year. It seems the time line has changed".
Bure blew out his right knee in Chicago on November 9 and had surgery five days later. he began light skating February 26 and has increased that to six days a week for about 60 minutes a session. Canuck conditioning coach Peter Twist gave Bure the weekend off to prepare for the rehabilitation stretch.
"Everything is going great", Twist said. "Right now Pavel needs to do some read-and-react drills and once I'm comfortable he can do those with me, he should be able to handle the team drills. If I had a set date when I thought he would be ready, I'd tell you. It's week to week".
A precedent for returning in five months from ACL reconstruction, (instead of six), has been set by Dallas Star Richard Matvichuk.
The rangy defenceman played a minor-league game four months and three weeks after blowing out his knee last season. Matvichuk played an NHL game five months and one week following surgery.
Stars' winger Bob Bassen duplicated Matvichuk's feat when he returned Wednesday after five months and nine days. Included in that period was a minor setback blamed on tendinitis.
Based on his desire to play and the injuries he suffered in that short span, one might say Pavel was not anywhere near 100% in 1996-97. By 1997-98, he had returned to form.
If Pavel hadn't been injured in 1995-96, and had not refused to play in 1998-99, Pavel's resume may very well have shown 10 years of consistent output. He didn't become "average" at any point during that ten-year period; poor, unfortunate circumstances simply robbed him of those years. With Pavel's ability to play hockey, those would have been an excellent ten years for him had he been a bit luckier with injuries. Pavel's prime never really ended during his career. Injuries destroyed his chance to play during those years and ultimately ended his career.
A relatively healthy Bure would have played consistently at peak level throughout the entire 1990s and into the 2000s. He would have had a fairly lengthy, consistent prime. When he retired, he was still playing in top form. It's unfortunate what happened. He is a "what if" player. On a team with above-average linemates, enjoying a healthy career, Pavel would have reached incredible milestones, and we would be making much greater comparisons right now than Bure vs Sundin.
Last edited by JetsAlternate: 01-01-2013 at
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