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01-02-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I guess I still don't see how Joseph passes Vanbiesbrouck on an overall ranking. Guess it just doesn't sync with me that Cujo played worse in the playoffs than the regular season almost the entire first half of his career. Tack on those years in Toronto and Detroit while in his 30s and he's all of a sudden golden?

I dunno. I put a little more stock in what these guys did during the 90s, given their ages and the offense faced at the time. 2000 involves playing for 3 different teams in one calendar year at the end of Beezer's career, so that's my head-to-head cut off, so to speak.

I don't care what Cujo's stats in Detroit look like, or how they help his cause in the long run, because I know he wasn't a better goalie than any version of him I'd seen previously in St. Louis, Edmonton, or Toronto - not even a question in my mind. It also kinda sticks out to me that he was the only Detroit goalie during their decade of division dominance (i.e. consecutive 1st place finishes) who DIDN'T end up winning a Cup there. I know that's not completely fair, but for a goalie that used to play so many games, I always thought he looked best when called on to do the least, lol (outside of that one year in Edmonton, maybe). Just about every other goalie up for discussion can have the opposite said about them, imo.

So I look at the 90s, and Cujo and Beezer come out pretty close (both with 500+ games played, SV% 0.908 to 0.907, GAA 2.64 to 2.87, etc). Problem is, Beezer has a similar track record going back even further, into the 80s, that has an even higher peak in terms of performance vs peers. So how does the Vezina-winning two-time all-star lose out in the balance of these two particular Cup-less goalies? It truly is a lesson in differences in values and trying to work backwards toward the "truth" with numbers.

Worst part of the deal is trying to figure out how Thomas doesn't beat the lot of them. As good of a story as he is, I'm not sure how comfortable I am yet with lumping his name in among some of these others. Fact is, though, that his resume deserves serious consideration "already".
Did you look at the support he got in comparison to the other Detroit goalies?

Detroit seems to have sealed him as a "first round goalie" forever but you don't win without goals.

Secondly, I'll reiterate that Joseph gets his reputation by and large by literally carrying teams that had no business making it to later rounds to their eventual defeat.

I know I went through all his series the last time someone was spouting off about how he was a choker in the later rounds and there were a couple of series where he was sub par and a bunch of series where his team ran out of gas or hit a brick wall after beating far superior opponents in earlier rounds.

I'll have to see if I can find the post.

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