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01-03-2013, 08:15 AM
  #98
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Again, I won't go out of my way to try to make the details of a goalie's seasons at 35/36 on strong team say more than can. One year as a starter, one as a backup, close to the best GAA and SV% of his career... easy enough to connect the dots there, so Detroit doesn't add much value (if at all) to Cujo's case, imo.
It does seem to reinforce a poor judgement of him for many, though.


Quote:
And I'll add that he has that reputation in Toronto with Toronto fans only, as that's the only team he, personally, did anything substantial for in terms of "carrying a team" anywhere. St. Louis was good enough to reach round 2 at least once in five years with or without Joseph, lol. One of the two Edmonton years was kind of impressive, but even then it boils down to a LOT of credit for 3 games to close out the Colorado series, and little else. Detroit certainly doesn't qualify as a team that needed carrying by Joseph, and nothing afterwards means anything, that's for sure.
You're severely underrating his playoff performances outside of Toronto.

1993 is where Curtis Joseph first started getting recognition for being lights out in the playoffs and deservedly so.. he was insanely good and he was insanely good in both rounds I might add.

Cujo practically stole a series in 1997 vs. a much stronger opponent and *deserves* a LOT of credit for it.

Similarly in 1998 he was lights out in defeating a much stronger Colorado squad before succumbing to a much stronger Dallas squad.

What did you expect him to do realistically? Have you actually looked at the difference between his team and these teams he was supposedly choking against?


Quote:
So, it's Toronto and only Toronto where Joseph sees the 3rd round.
Right, and in one of those 3rd round appearances he played pretty well and one he was so-so.

However in both of those 3rd round appearances his team ended up being badly outplayed.

Frankly as a Leaf fan, both losses were embarrassing and not because of Joseph. Particularly the loss against the Devils where the Leafs only managed 6 shots in the entire deciding game was pathetic!

EDIT: Got the Devils and Carolina series mixed up but whatever.. the Leafs were bad against them too.

Quote:
Getting out of the first round and getting killed in the 2nd round doesn't count as carrying anyone anywhere in my books. Anyone in any year can win a round; that has been proven time and time again.
Not some of the first rounds that he was winning. Especially with Edmonton.. those squads had no business advancing except for him.

Quote:
Either way, we're still talking about the top goalies of all time here, so I'd expect more of everything from a goalie without any major accolades like championships, awards, or all-star honours to pick up the slack.
That has as much to do with bad timing by his parents and the style of play his teams played as it does with his performance.

This constant downgrading of his reputation in hindsight bothers me.


EDIT - Found my old post detailing Joseph's playoffs:


Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
His losses outside of the first round were generally to teams that so overwhelmed his own it isn't even funny.

All the times Cujo made it to the second round:

89-90: Strong in all 4 first round wins against the Leafs. Doesn't play in the second round and I forget why to be honest. I assume injury? EDIT (Taco pointed out that this was a shoulder injury)

92-93: I'm sure Phil will pile on about game 7 again, but the fact is the Blues wouldn't have even got there without Joseph. He was sensational.

96-97: 81 point Edmonton team against 104 point Dallas first round. Think about that for a moment. Absolutely incredible in the first round in defeating a far superior team. His reward? 107 point Colorado attempting to repeat on their first Stanley Cup. I do think Roy outplayed him (in the stat line) but I don't think a chance is a chance between two teams a whopping 26 points apart in the standings.

97-98: 80 point Edmonton faces off against the team that beat them the year previous.. the 95 point Avs. Both Roy and Joseph are up and down until the last three games of the series where Joseph allows 1 goal in the final three games and shuts out the Avs in Game 6 and Game 7. His reward? Advancing to play the 109 point Dallas Stars one year before their Cup win. A 29 point difference in the standings. The only game the Oilers win in the 5 game series is a shutout by Joseph. They also lose 1-0 in OT during game 3. The Oilers score a total of 5 goals in the 5 game series. Could any goalie, ever, win a 7 game series where his team scores 5 goals in 5 games?

98-99: Yahoo Curtis is on the financially capable Leafs! Whoops Pat Quinn is coach and they are the 21st best defensive team despite their 97 points and league best offense. First up Philly 93 point team. Joseph is very strong winning a 6 game series where the Leafs league best offense is only capable of 9 total goals, including a 2-1OT win in game 5 and a 1-0 shutout in game 6 to cap the series. Next up 90 point Pens. After being shut out the first game of the series, the Leaf offense finally comes to life, lighting up the Pens for 18 goals in the next 5 games. This is actually a pretty easy series for the Leafs. Next up, 91 point Buffalo with all time goalie Hasek. Roloson splits the first two games with Toronto and in the final 3 games Hasek keeps Toronto to 2 goals each game. By all accounts the Leafs and Joseph in particular don't play very well. They bow out meekly in 5 games.

99-00: Leafs are a 100 point team for the first time ever. They are 4th in the league in offense this time around but still an extremely mediocre 15th in defense.. this at the height of the dead puck era. First up, Ottawa 95 points. Joseph is outstanding in the series outside of game 3 and the Leafs win in 6. Round 2 is 103 point Devils, on their way to the Cup. The Leafs are hopelessly outclassed against a disciplined team with a plan, much like Buffalo the previous year. In the 6 game series the Leafs are outshot 192-117, including being outshot 26-6 in the clinching game. Yes, the Leafs managed 6 shots in a complete game. That pathetic choker Curtis Joseph should have been the difference!

00-01 The Leafs falter a bit to a 90 point team but their defense is 10th. Joseph and the Leafs in general are sensational in the first round, sweeping Ottawa. Joseph only allows 3 goals in the 4 games even though the games were close enough that two of them go to OT. Next up are the 111 Devils on their way to a repeat Finals appearance. Here Curtis is back to his 20+ point differentials.. Joseph pitches a 32 save shutout to take the series lead in a game 1 where Brodeur faces a total of 17 shots. Game 2 is a goal fest where the Leafs are outshot again and lose 6-5 in OT. Game 3 is an OT loss for the Leafs again while again being heavily outshot. Games 4-7 the Leafs continue to be outshot but the difference is not great and the teams trade wins. Toronto loses in a game 7 where the Leafs manage 16 shots. Shots on Joseph for the series: 206. Shots on Brodeur for the series: 148.

01-02: This is the one that hurts. Leafs 100 points, 3rd in offense, 13th in defense. First up 96 point Isles. Series is back and forth and chippy, both teams (and Joseph) are up and down. Leafs win in 7. Next up 94 point Ottawa. No Sundin on the Leafs. Leafs are blown out in game one. Joseph stops 54/56 for an OT win in game 2 (choker!). They seesaw games 3-6. Game 7.. 3-0 shutout where the Leafs limit Ottawa to 19 shots. Next up Carolina. Game one the Leafs win. Sundin comes back. You'd think that would help an overachieving team to get their first ballot hall of famer back but.. it is an extremely tight series. 3 games going to overtime. The Leafs score 6 goals in the 7 games!! Again.. what goalie could ever win a 7 game series with 6 goals! (Edit, I goofed it was 6 games but the point stands)

After that Joseph had two Detroit teams also forget how to score and that was basically it for his playoff career.

Outside of the third round series against Buffalo, which in hindsight really just showed how undisciplined the Leaf strategy was in comparison, Joseph's teams were either hopelessly outclassed or hopelessly outplayed or both pretty much every time he went past the first round.

I have a hard time believing even Saint Patrick could win some of those series that Joseph supposedly "lost" by not "stepping up". I mean unless he could score goals too. The fact that he was routinely beating or extending hilariously better teams than his own is quite impressive.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 01-03-2013 at 08:27 AM.
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