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01-04-2013, 12:29 PM
We do not sow
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The ASTs are important, and we're all trying to understand just what, but in all honesty, 3rd place nowadays might be arguably better than 2nd back then, wouldn't you say? And they were not very well backed up statistically and there's a good case they were mainly GP-based.
Does Lundqvist have four extra 3rd place finishes in AST?

You can argue about just how deserved Giacomin's ASTs were, sure. Doesn't change one bit on the fact that he was simply held in higher esteem than Lundqvist - why, and whether deservedly, is another matter. But I don't see people running around yelling that Vanbiesbrouck beats say Gardiner backing it up with an argument that boils down to 'old awards are (potentially) based on hogwash'.

Number 1, who has ever made a sv% argument for Lundqvist or against Giacomin that was era-biased? We've talked about how they ranked in the league, or compared to the league average, or to their own backups.
And Giacomin ranked clearly better. In smaller league, yes, but by this 'Xth place in smaller league equals Yth place in larger one' we should be voting some average large-league guy like Hiller over Bower, right?

Second, the team argument against Lundqvist falls apart when it is shown that other NYR goalies in the past 7 years clearly haven't benefitted greatly from this "extraordinarily defense-minded team"
It's a well-known fact that the Rangers are and were (from 2008 onward, as Tortorella took over) a defense-first team, sometimes to the point of absurdity, so trying to make it look untrue is just silly.

Lundqvist vs. backups in the era:
2008-09 Lundqvist .916 & 2.43, Valiquette .907 & 2.84
2009-10 Lundqvist .921 & 2.38, bunch of crappy guys 0.888 & 3.00
2010-11 Lundqvist .923 & 2.28, Biron .923 & 2.13
2011-12 Lundqvist .930 & 1.97, Biron .904 & 2.46

That's one season where Biron equaled him, the Vezina season where he grossly outplayed Biron, a season where a bunch of crappy AHL goalies crapped the bed as backups, and a season where he hardly did all that hot compared to his AHL-level backup (who BTW 'outplayed' Lundqvist stats-wise in 2007-08). Nothing out of ordinary, and hardly a proof that Rangers weren't a defense-first team, right?

Did you see the part where Giacomin performed below replacement level in his playoff career? Lundqvist hasn't been stellar as a whole, but he's been better than average, which is a whole lot better than replacement level, which is a whole lot better than where Giacomin's numbers put him.
What's the average between 2005 and 2011? For Lundqvist's .909 in that timespan hardly feels above average for playoff SV%.

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