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01-11-2013, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Genres are influenced by subjective qualities, but there's a certain point where objective qualities set in. Wagner's compositions aren't hip-hop just because "in my opinion" they're closer to Jay-Z than Bach*. A lot of extreme metal is closer to hardcore punk than it is to Bathory as well. Does that mean it's not metal, either? Just because something takes influence from another genre, doesn't mean it's not metal. Particularly if that category is as broad as "rock," given that all of metal is just a sub-genre of rock.

Iron Maiden is metal.

*In case it wasn't obvious, I don't actually hold that opinion. Just demonstrating a point.
Yeah that's a good point--grind could be closer to punk than metal, therefore not truly metal. I would agree with that. Extreme Noise Terror for instance are punk and not really metal at all, although they were one of the preludes to grind.

Just to be clear, I don't think what I'm saying is just subjective. Shades of grey can be objective too. Even if I don't have objective knowledge about these grey matters. They objectively exist, if that makes sense.

Originally Posted by cynicism View Post

Your opinion is as worthless as a Greek bank account. The defining characteristics of Metal do not change over time, the sounds change and evolve, but the fundamentals don't change. Black Sabbath was Metal in 1970 and they remain Metal now, regardless of what bands have followed in their footsteps sound like.

What you're saying is that Louis Armstrong isn't jazz, but John Zorn is. Or Robert Johnson isn't blues but SRV is.
Jazz came from blues (and other things too probably). Like Behn said, I think these perceptions can change over time. Louis Armstrong could probably be considered to have strong elements of something like swing, big band, bop, ragtime, etc. He was a transitional figure towards jazz from blues like Black Sabbath was from rock to metal.

Originally Posted by Barry Dylan View Post
I think saying the term 'extreme metal' is backhand worthy.
That's part of the reason why I'm saying that black metal, death metal, and grindcore, etc. are metal. I dislike the term extreme metal too. True metal is based on a new set of works and principles following Venom, Hellhammer, and all the rest.

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