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01-11-2013, 11:02 PM
  #820
Miller Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post

And the only reason why nobody talks about his deal as of now is because Nemisz and Elliot, haven't started to shine yet if they ever will. Thank god for that though, was never a Nemisz fan to begin with while I still believe in Elliott but chances are it won't be a Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty against us. Thank god the Flames didn't pick Carlson though...
thing is that the with Timmins effectiveness at the draft game (which some would argue should equate to credit in Gainey's favor... debatable, but fair enough), it's quite likely that we don't end up with Nemisz/Elliot.

bottom line is that it was an ok trade, even arguably a good trade (as Tanguay did fit some needs), but taken as a whole, the asset transfer was terrible.

Trading for Tanguay, and then making no effort to re-sign him, despite a productive year in the role he was brought to fill, because you decide he's too soft (or whatever other problem Gainey had with the player... contract demands clearly weren't the issue since he didn't even offer him one, and Tanguay eventually signed for peanuts), shows again some terrible pro scouting.

Tanguay was very much the same player he had been in Calgary, and they moved him for the same type of reason but with the added pressure of his large contract & the incentive of 2 high picks... we jettisoned him for nothing after paying him the money and wasting the picks...

exactly the kind of negative asset management that leads a team into the league basement... despite having an excellent draft record and spending as much or more than every other team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The reason Bob Gainey switched from building within the draft to trading picks in 2008 is because the team became a contender. It was a legitimate decision to trade for players like Alex Tanguay, Robert Lang, etc. Overall the 2008-09 team was the most stacked Habs team of the decade, it merely broke down due to injuries and a bad coach and a strange decision to blame Kovalev for everything.

The problem were not his trades/drafting, but his signings. He let countless players walk for nothing. It's that horrible asset management that did the team in.
individually, his trade record was decent (then again, factor in the Gomez trade, which was one of the worst in decades, and it's hard for the sum to not be considered below average) but I'd argue that when taken as a whole, and the trades are measured up against the context they were made in and the immediate results, and even many of the even/slightly ahead trades we made under his tenure amounted to negative results.

His asset/roster management was terrible, polluted by a pretty clear lack of identifiable vision and willingness to build toward a long-term goal objective (other than the pie-in-the-sky "win a cup").

At no point during his tenure did we have much of a consistent identity (other than the "smurf" one, sadly), and that is precisely what top organizations are able to do in building long term, sustained, repeatable success.

such identity is sometimes more in essence and intention than it is in measurable statistical analysis, which is where those who rely too heavily on subjectively interpreted/assembled numbers miss the bigger picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
a bunch of contracts ended, the team imploded, problems in the dressing room. You don't need to look far as to why the team unloaded everything.

DAChampion is right, the team was stacked.

Andrei Plekanec Kovalev
Higgins Koivu Tanguay
Latendresse Lang Sergei
Lapierre Metropolit Begin/Laraque/Kostopoulos

Markov Komisarek
Hamrlik Gorges
Boullion Dandenault/ O'byrne/ Brisebois
of the "stacked" team you speak of from 2008-09, in just 3 seasons, the bolded players became:

Gomez, Bournival, 2nd round pick 2013, 5th round pick 2013.

Think about that for a second...
19 of 22 players on a "stacked" team (your words, not mine) translate into 1 nhl player (who happens to have one of the worst contracts in the league... an offensive player who went a calendar year without a goal), 1 bottom-6 NHL prospect (likely a solid one, but still), and 2 draft picks.

19 assets, turning into 4, in 3 years. Even with retirements and inevitable expiring contracts replaced with other players, how that can be viewed as anything but absolutely abysmal management is beyond me.

and let's not forget that the 3 year outcome of transitioning beyond that "stacked" team, was one of the worst seasons in franchise history.

Gauthier's also accountable for that massive failure, but as Gainey's self-appointed next in line, whom he continued to "advise", hard to absolve him of this complete and total failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post

The team came off a first place finish and was criticized for being a PP team and one which lacked a big centre. Lang and Tanguay were both good players at ES and Lang played great here until he went down. The problem of the year before was identified, but for some reason the team just didn't gel at all.
disagree...

many around here, myself included, felt that the 07 team (which overachieved thanks largely to a miraculously injury free season), suffered from a serious lack of team toughness and gritty play/personalities.
Some have used superficial stats from the flyers series to argue that we "outhit then therefore toughness was not the problem", but anyone who watched that series game-for-game could see the physical & leadership elements that the flyers had over our roster.

Gainey addresses this by picking up two players known for being soft-ish, at times critisized by previous coaches for lack of commitment and not known for being vocal leaders... and a pure goon who had worn out previous welcomes for his outsized ego and desire to be taken for more than what he was.


the other issue was that our 07 upstart team did so in no small part to the large roles/contributions many young forwards had (A & S.kost, lats, higgins, lapierre), by adding 2 top-9 fwds, he was basically telling those players that their success wasn't to be relied on... don't get me wrong, you improve your team when you can and competition is part of the deal, but at the same time bringing in less than elite, or even top-line, players to take minutes away from up-and-coming players who just stepped up big time to help the team to it's best finish in years... and doing so with guys who aren't known for their work ethic/leadership... that's a pretty good recipe for brewing tension & surprise surprise, all 5 of those young guys turned into "attitude" problems before they left town.

from a team building/needs filling point of view, it was apparent to some during that summer that we had not addressed the right needs, and that our big summer moves were in fact counter-productive.

from my pov, Lang actually outdid my expectations, and played like a guy wanting to make sure he got another contract... which was great.
And I was optimistic that Laraque would give us the kind of precense that S.Thorton is for the bruins... what a disaster he turned into.

Tanguay? he delivered pretty much as expected, and then we didn't even bother to offer him a contract when 1/2 of what we paid him would have easily kept him in town.

and then there's the whole Streit issue... don't think anyone would argue that the solution to being a team too reliant on the PP, is to give up your most dangerous PP player for nothing?
that is unless you have the vision and foresight of a B.Gainey

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