All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0
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01-22-2013, 12:57 PM
Join Date: Mar 2011
Originally Posted by
And we're off to a great start here...
So you're telling us that we didn't finish 15th with Plecs and Cole in the lineup last year?
I guess by 'flat-out wrong' you mean 'absolutely correct' right? Because that's FACT not opinion. Seriously man... you can't even acknowledge this?
I said we finished 15th last year with both guys in the lineup. And I was right.
I also said we could easily do the same thing this year. As for the 06-07 season, I don't remember Cole being on that roster dude. I'm talking about the state of the team as it is and what we should do about it.
But you can't even admit to the simple fact that we finished 15th. No wonder you don't understand anything.
Yeah you're right the Flyers didn't break up their core... oh wait, they dealt away Richards and Carter....
As for the Bruins, they didn't trade for any picks either and... oh wait, they got Seguin, Rask and Hamilton all picks and prosepects from the Maple Leafs.
But yeah, let's not talk about that part...
If he doesn't warrant a 1st then why is he so valuable to our team? Which is it? Is he a star or is he worthless? As for his value, I was pretty clear that he'd have to have a decent season to fetch a 1st. I don't see how he doesn't if he puts up decent numbers.
As for Plecs being part of the core... that's great and all but this core isn't going anywhere right now. If it was, I wouldn't think about trading him. And no we don't NEED Plecs on this team so stop being so frantic. We have other vets who can play mommy to the kids. It doesn't have to be him.
And I'm also not suggesting he be dumped or given away. If he doesn't net a strong prospect or top ten pick then don't deal him. I'm just saying that we should try to shop him... that's all.
How many vets have to be on the roster? 20? 10?
We've got enough that we can trade those three guys away man. Passing up on young talent for the sake of a babysitter is silly.
So what? We should've done this long ago when Koivu left. We didn't. We went for quick fixes. So instead of builidng when we should've we wasted years with Gomez and co. Now you want to put it off some more? Why? Why are the next two seasons so important to you when we're not all that good a team right now?
They'll get vets down the road. They did things the right way (even if it was unintentional) and got the talent first. Ryan Smyth is over there, he can play the role of leader just like Gionta can for us. You're talking like all these players will be lost forever. They won't.
It's a whole lot easier to get role players via FA down the road to flesh out a roster than it is to get young talent to build around.
How do you not understand this?
I love it when people say we should be like Detroit as though we can just all of a sudden start winning like they did. That club drafted high more than any other team did in the 80s and got one of the best players of all time out of it. Then they got lucky with Fedorov and Lidstrom late in draffs (something that's almost impossible to do)... once that's done then you're going to win a cup no matter what.
Detroit had MULTIPLE superstars on it. We've had none. And if you don't have superstars... good luck. We can't just wake up and decide to be Detroit dude...
Detroit's path can't be repeated. Edmonton's can. That's the difference.
Dude, please, stop avoiding arguments by pretending to be dumb. You know very well I was referring to the claim you made saying we should deal useful players when we finish last. Which is and always will be one of the dumbest things you've said. That statement, and the Markov for a 1st, were the ones I was explaining to be flat-out wrong... don't play dumb. And why are you even talking about Cole being on the roster in 06-07? Do you have reading comprehension issues? I said we haven't finished outside the playoffs since 06-07, making a point that finishing 15th isn't a common occurrence, and you avoid that point completely and go rambling about Cole? What?
Your argument isn't valid, dude. Philadelphia had a crap season and bounced back with the SAME roster, that's the whole point! They only traded Richards and Carter after making the playoffs 2-3 consecutive years first. And no one said anything about the Bruins trading picks! Stop making your own arguments up so that you can ignore what else was said. The Kessel trade has nothing to do with it, they traded him 3 years later! You are so bad at this, it is ridiculous. No one can win an argument with you because you pull random facts that have no correlation into the argument and then argue against those facts instead of the argument ACTUALLY PRESENTED. They traded Kessel for two first-rounders, 3 years later, and honestly who would give that up anyway? The point is that both these teams bounced back from being last or dead-last and maintained the same core of veteran leadership and SUCCEEDED with it, especially in Boston's case.
As for Markov, dude are you blind? Can you not see he is much more value on this team than off it? His trade value is at an all-time low right now, and you want to trade him? Think about that for a moment, let that sink in. All your arguments make no sense, that's why no one agrees with you. You don't trade a veteran who was injured for two years away when his value is low as it has ever been, especially when he is showing good signs right now. You let him play and see how he does, then make a judgment from there. People like you make me crazy, crying for trades after you have seen a single game played in three years by the player.
Plekanec could very well net us something good, but he IS a bigger piece on this team than you think. He is experienced in the playoffs, plays in EVERY single situation, is a great passer and can play top line minutes. Of course, if we can get a great return for him, go for it, but you throw around the idea of trading all our vets just for the sake of trading them and it's insanely silly.
Why are you complaining, as if I said we can just pick up and be the new Detroit? I said we should take example from a team like Detroit that consistently succeeded in the cap era, while you want a team like Edmonton who has made the playoffs twice in like 10 years! It is quite silly how you say Detroit's path can't be repeated while Edmonton's can. Just a dumb remark, man... come on. Detroit had superstars like Datsyuk and Lidstrom, with a great supporting caste of youth and veterans, while drafting well and developing prospects. I am talking the recent Detroit here, not what you were rambling about in the 80s. The Habs have a goaltender, which Detroit didn't. We have a great young core to build around, and we need to support that core with a good mix of veterans and youth. Trade one or two veterans, get a solid mix of both on this lineup, then develop our draft picks properly and not rush them like you want, and keep drafting well. It's as simple as that. We need a retool, we don't need to trade away all our assets, and let me paraphrase your ridiculous statement from before "useful players that don't mean anything if you're on a team that finished 15th". Give your head a shake man! No one rebuilds anymore unless the circumstances are critical.
Just stop for a minute and think about it: how would you rather your team be managed, like a team like Detroit, the class of the league for decades, or a team like Edmonton, who obviously hasn't done anything since that fairytale run. EVERYONE will take Detroit, even Oilers fans for god's sake.
Originally Posted by
The 80's Edmonton? Well, the thing is, anybody on any side can cherry pick any number of examples, franchise or player, and none of it means anything as a general rule or guiding philosophy. You need a stable and smart management structure, and/or a dose of good luck along the way. The rest follows from that. Make good trades at the right times, whether they are for veterans or for draft picks, win hockey games, grow the culture of winning, cross your fingers.
Pretty much exactly what he said. When I speak of Detroit, I speak about how their organization is managed, how they go about doing things, their plan of action. It is the class of the league and has been for years. All we need is a stable management that makes the right decisions at the right times, make good, smart trades and draft well, while developing properly. That really is a recipe for success.
Last edited by JohnLennon: 01-22-2013 at
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