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01-22-2013, 05:07 PM
  #342
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The 80's Edmonton?
Today's Edmonton. I actually think their management is terrible but they've unintentionally rebuilt. We'll see how they do but I suspect that there's too much talent on that team not to develop into a contender in the next couple of years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Well, the thing is, anybody on any side can cherry pick any number of examples, franchise or player, and none of it means anything as a general rule or guiding philosophy. You need a stable and smart management structure, and/or a dose of good luck along the way. The rest follows from that. Make good trades at the right times, whether they are for veterans or for draft picks, win hockey games, grow the culture of winning, cross your fingers.
I think there's a common thread on pretty much every cup winner. Superstars. Awfully hard to win cups without them.

So how do you get them? It's next to impossbile to deal for a superstar once they start producing. That's why I'm an advocate of getting the best picks and prospects to work with. We've shown no ability to do it via free agency, so that leaves the draft and dealing for prospects. If we can get a rip-off trade for an established superstar... sure. Who isn't for that? I just don't think you can plan for it.

But you can deal for prospects and picks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Dude, please, stop avoiding arguments by pretending to be dumb.
Stop making dumb arguments in the first place. Saying I'm dead wrong on us coming in 15th is... DUMB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
You know very well I was referring to the claim you made saying we should deal useful players when we finish last. Which is and always will be one of the dumbest things you've said. That statement, and the Markov for a 1st, were the ones I was explaining to be flat-out wrong... don't play dumb.
Dude, you tried to say that other clubs don't trade away core players to rebuild. You gave me two examples... and in BOTH cases they did exactly what you said they didn't do...

Dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
And why are you even talking about Cole being on the roster in 06-07? Do you have reading comprehension issues? I said we haven't finished outside the playoffs since 06-07, making a point that finishing 15th isn't a common occurrence, and you avoid that point completely and go rambling about Cole? What?
I said Cole was on the roster last year when we finished 15th so was Plecs. You started talking about 06-07 in your post. I said it was irrelevant.

What is this an Abott and Costello routine? What's wrong with you. You say I'm dead wrong on things that are VERIFIABLY correct. And then you say I'm being dumb?

What's wrong with you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Your argument isn't valid, dude. Philadelphia had a crap season and bounced back with the SAME roster, that's the whole point! They only traded Richards and Carter after making the playoffs 2-3 consecutive years first. And no one said anything about the Bruins trading picks! Stop making your own arguments up so that you can ignore what else was said. The Kessel trade has nothing to do with it, they traded him 3 years later! You are so bad at this, it is ridiculous. No one can win an argument with you because you pull random facts that have no correlation into the argument and then argue against those facts instead of the argument ACTUALLY PRESENTED. They traded Kessel for two first-rounders, 3 years later, and honestly who would give that up anyway? The point is that both these teams bounced back from being last or dead-last and maintained the same core of veteran leadership and SUCCEEDED with it, especially in Boston's case.
It doesn't matter if it came two years later man. The point is that teams do trade core players for the future. And in both cases it was extremely successful.

Yet for some reason you keep trying to paint this as being dumb...

As for bouncing back after a bad season... sure it could happen. It could happen for us this year. I've never denied this. Doesn't matter though, rebuilding is still the right thing for us to do right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
As for Markov, dude are you blind? Can you not see he is much more value on this team than off it?
What value is he bringing if we're still barely making the playoffs? Calling me blind isn't going to help you here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
His trade value is at an all-time low right now, and you want to trade him? Think about that for a moment, let that sink in. All your arguments make no sense, that's why no one agrees with you. You don't trade a veteran who was injured for two years away when his value is low as it has ever been, especially when he is showing good signs right now. You let him play and see how he does, then make a judgment from there. People like you make me crazy, crying for trades after you have seen a single game played in three years by the player.
Tons of people agree with me. Some have actually come here and said that I've helped convince them that rebuilding is the right path. Screaming that I'm crazy just makes you seem desperate dude.

Yes, his value is at an all-time low. I've already acknowledged this as has everyone else. That's why I said IF he has a good seaosn he should fetch a 1st. That's not unreasonable at all.

Screaming that we CAN'T trade him and that he's WORTH WAY too much to us is silly in the extreme when on the other hand you're saying he's not worth a 1st. Nobody is saying we should shove him out the door for no return or that he's hurting the team. You're making yourself look ridiculous here. Dealing him doesn't mean the sky is going to fall.

Get a grip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Plekanec could very well net us something good, but he IS a bigger piece on this team than you think. He is experienced in the playoffs, plays in EVERY single situation, is a great passer and can play top line minutes.
You continue to repeat how good Plecs is and can play in any situation... blahblahblahblahblah... we all acknowledge this. Stop repeating it.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that this team isn't winning anything now anyway so it really doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Of course, if we can get a great return for him, go for it, but you throw around the idea of trading all our vets just for the sake of trading them and it's insanely silly.
In this one sentence you've actually agreed with me. Do you realize this? Then you go and write that I'm suggesting that we deal them for the sake of it? Something I've specifically repeated to you that we shouldn't do...

WTF?

Do you just not know how to read? You've just said that if we get a good return on him we deal him... well that's what I've been saying so wtf is your problem dude?

Stop being dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Why are you complaining, as if I said we can just pick up and be the new Detroit? I said we should take example from a team like Detroit that consistently succeeded in the cap era, while you want a team like Edmonton who has made the playoffs twice in like 10 years! It is quite silly how you say Detroit's path can't be repeated while Edmonton's can. Just a dumb remark, man... come on. Detroit had superstars like Datsyuk and Lidstrom, with a great supporting caste of youth and veterans, while drafting well and developing prospects. I am talking the recent Detroit here, not what you were rambling about in the 80s. The Habs have a goaltender, which Detroit didn't. We have a great young core to build around, and we need to support that core with a good mix of veterans and youth. Trade one or two veterans, get a solid mix of both on this lineup, then develop our draft picks properly and not rush them like you want, and keep drafting well. It's as simple as that. We need a retool, we don't need to trade away all our assets, and let me paraphrase your ridiculous statement from before "useful players that don't mean anything if you're on a team that finished 15th". Give your head a shake man! No one rebuilds anymore unless the circumstances are critical.
The "recent Detroit"... So you want us to be the recent Detroit that was already a winner. Gee, that sounds great. Let's ignore how they became winners in the first place and just skip to being a winning organization. Great idea man.

Detroit didn't make the playoffs for years in the worst division in the history of hockey man. They started the same way the Oilers did. The Leafs of the 80s were frequently better even though the Wings had Yzerman. That's how bad they were.

Yet you want us to be the Wings and not the Oilers? Both were bottom feeders for a long, long time. But you either don't understand this or don't want to acknowledge it. Right we'll just go and be the Red Wings... only the "recent Red Wings" though.

Holy crap man... lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Just stop for a minute and think about it: how would you rather your team be managed, like a team like Detroit, the class of the league for decades, or a team like Edmonton, who obviously hasn't done anything since that fairytale run. EVERYONE will take Detroit, even Oilers fans for god's sake.
Both started the same way... losing for years and getting top picks. Detroit didn't just magically become contenders in the 90s. They rebuilt and then got extremely lucky in the draft.

Like I said, once you get Yzerman, Lidstrom and Fedorov you're going to win a cup man. It's only a matter of time.

As for Edmonton, they've lost unintentionally. I don't think much of their management. We'll see if they screw it up. If they're successful though, it will really underscore that rebuilding works because I don't have much faith in that management group at all. If they can do it, anyone can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Pretty much exactly what he said. When I speak of Detroit, I speak about how their organization is managed, how they go about doing things, their plan of action. It is the class of the league and has been for years. All we need is a stable management that makes the right decisions at the right times, make good, smart trades and draft well, while developing properly. That really is a recipe for success.
Nobody disagrees that Detroit has had an amazing run. But they didn't start that way. They started as the Dead Things and built from there.

It's too soon for us to judge Edmonton. For all we know they'll be winning cups for years to come and then some guy like you will come on here and pretend like the rebuild never happened... just like you're trying to do with the Wings now.

In this very thread somebody tried to suggest NJ never rebuilt... You guys just ignore all the crap that those teams had to go through to become winners in the first place and then say... "Hey let's just be like the Wings..."

Wake up.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-22-2013 at 06:12 PM.
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