All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0
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01-22-2013, 06:34 PM
Join Date: Mar 2011
Originally Posted by
Today's Edmonton. I actually think their management is terrible but they've unintentionally rebuilt. We'll see how they do but I suspect that there's too much talent on that team not to develop into a contender in the next couple of years.
I think there's a common thread on pretty much every cup winner. Superstars. Awfully hard to win cups without them.
So how do you get them? It's next to impossbile to deal for a superstar once they start producing. That's why I'm an advocate of getting the best picks and prospects to work with. We've shown no ability to do it via free agency, so that leaves the draft and dealing for prospects. If we can get a rip-off trade for an established superstar... sure. Who isn't for that? I just don't think you can plan for it.
But you can deal for prospects and picks.
Stop making dumb arguments in the first place. Saying I'm dead wrong on us coming in 15th is... DUMB.
Dude, you tried to say that other clubs don't trade away core players to rebuild. You gave me two examples... and in BOTH cases they did exactly what you said they didn't do...
I said Cole was on the roster last year when we finished 15th so was Plecs. You started talking about 06-07 in your post. I said it was irrelevant.
What is this an Abott and Costello routine? What's wrong with you. You say I'm dead wrong on things that are VERIFIABLY correct. And then you say I'm being dumb?
What's wrong with you?
It doesn't matter if it came two years later man. The point is that teams do trade core players for the future. And in both cases it was
Yet for some reason you keep trying to paint this as being dumb...
As for bouncing back after a bad season... sure it could happen. It could happen for us this year. I've never denied this. Doesn't matter though, rebuilding is still the right thing for us to do right now.
What value is he bringing if we're still barely making the playoffs? Calling me blind isn't going to help you here.
Tons of people agree with me. Some have actually come here and said that I've helped convince them that rebuilding is the right path. Screaming that I'm crazy just makes you seem desperate dude.
Yes, his value is at an all-time low. I've already acknowledged this as has everyone else. That's why I said IF he has a good seaosn he should fetch a 1st. That's not unreasonable at all.
Screaming that we CAN'T trade him and that he's WORTH WAY too much to us is silly in the extreme when on the other hand you're saying he's not worth a 1st. Nobody is saying we should shove him out the door for no return or that he's hurting the team. You're making yourself look ridiculous here. Dealing him doesn't mean the sky is going to fall.
Get a grip.
You continue to repeat how good Plecs is and can play in any situation... blahblahblahblahblah... we all acknowledge this. Stop repeating it.
What you refuse to acknowledge is that this team isn't winning anything now anyway so it really doesn't matter.
In this one sentence you've actually agreed with me. Do you realize this? Then you go and write that I'm suggesting that we deal them for the sake of it? Something I've specifically repeated to you that we shouldn't do...
Do you just not know how to read? You've just said that if we get a good return on him we deal him... well that's what I've been saying so wtf is your problem dude?
Stop being dumb.
The "recent Detroit"... So you want us to be the recent Detroit that was already a winner. Gee, that sounds great. Let's ignore how they became winners in the first place and just skip to being a winning organization. Great idea man.
Detroit didn't make the playoffs for years in the worst division in the history of hockey man. They started the same way the Oilers did. The Leafs of the 80s were frequently better even though the Wings had Yzerman. That's how bad they were.
Yet you want us to be the Wings and not the Oilers? Both were bottom feeders for a long, long time. But you either don't understand this or don't want to acknowledge it. Right we'll just go and be the Red Wings... only the "recent Red Wings" though.
Holy crap man... lol
Both started the same way... losing for years and getting top picks. Detroit didn't just magically become contenders in the 90s. They rebuilt and then got extremely lucky in the draft.
Like I said, once you get Yzerman, Lidstrom and Fedorov you're going to win a cup man. It's only a matter of time.
As for Edmonton, they've lost unintentionally. I don't think much of their management. We'll see if they screw it up. If they're successful though, it will really underscore that rebuilding works because I don't have much faith in that management group at all. If they can do it, anyone can.
Nobody disagrees that Detroit has had an amazing run. But they didn't start that way. They started as the Dead Things and built from there.
It's too soon for us to judge Edmonton. For all we know they'll be winning cups for years to come and then some guy like you will come on here and pretend like the rebuild never happened... just like you're trying to do with the Wings now.
In this very thread somebody tried to suggest NJ never rebuilt... You guys just ignore all the crap that those teams had to go through to become winners in the first place and then say... "Hey let's just be like the Wings..."
Oh my god, cut your he-said, she-said nonsense. You do realize you are embarrassing yourself, right? I even explained to you in black and white that I never said you were wrong that we finished 15th, I even mentioned it many times, stop pretending like I was doubting our position in the standings. OBVIOUSLY that was our position. I explained to you in simple terms I was telling you your other statements were wrong, and they still are. Your arguments are getting more stupid.
See, you're the one who made the stupid statement that you think just because a team finishes 15th, their players aren't worth it. I quoted you on it many times. You said useful players aren't worth anything on a team who finished last. You haven't even bothered defending that statement because you, and everyone else, knows its the most retarded opinion in the world. I then proceeded to explain to you that Philadelphia and Boston finished low one season, like the Habs, but next two seasons they rebounded by being playoff teams again. Then you start whining about how they EVENTUALLY trade some of their core (in Boston's case, only one player, three years later.... come on dude, pathetic) and that has nothing to do with it! The point was they finished poorly but rebounded with the same core just the next year and year after, so you saying Cole and Plekanec should be dealt just because they happened to be on our team when we finished last is a stupid argument.
I can't believe I have to spell it out for you like this. Boston dealt one player for two number one picks, that is hardly trading their "core" like you said. Philadelphia only traded Richards and Carter years after they finished last, so it has NOTHING to do with their poor record that year. Both teams succeeded with the same core, and only finished low once before rebounding. I explained how the Habs only finished out of the playoffs once since 06-07, so we could have a similar situation. That's it. Sure everyone can trade core players, we can too, that wasn't the point and you were too blind to see it so I had to explain it simply to you.
The fact that you bring up how the Wings were bottom-feeders for a long time just startles me so much, along with your other weak arguments, I just can't go on. The Red Wings have made the playoffs 26 of their last 28 seasons, more importantly their last 21 years. That obviously has very little to do with their being a weaker team almost THIRTY YEARS AGO! It is good management, great drafting, good coaching, great development and solid trades that has gotten them there. To even have the thought cross your mind that they have achieved all of this from their Dead Wings era and give full credit to THAT... Unbelievable. I am so speechless I can't even respond anymore. The lack of hockey logic is simply mind-boggling. It makes things even funnier that aside from these stupid semantics, we want a very similar direction for this team.
Originally Posted by
I agree with this mostly, however, I don't think some are being realistic about the returns. The veterans I am willing to trade, I am willing to trade, because I don't believe they offer much. The ones I am not willing to trade have a higher value, but not a value that will ever land a pick in the top 10 of the draft. Without a top 10 pick, I'd prefer the players we have than banking hopes on a crap-shoot.
If we can improve the roster through a trade, you do it, but you don't enter into a season with the sole purpose of unloading for the sake of it which is what some of have been suggesting.
The idea of trading pleks too as if he can't contribute to a good team is a move that is taking one step forward and two steps back for example. The likeliness of a 20-30 overall pick ever amounting to Pleks is very slim. Mysteries aren't better than sure things and newer isn't always better.
I agree with you completely, this mirrors my mindset perfectly. That last sentence really tells you how some people really do live in fantasy hockey land and not in the real world, and it is so true.
Last edited by JohnLennon: 01-22-2013 at
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