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01-30-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tdadanny View Post
Disagree completely. Breaking up the play and then skating the puck out of the zone or making a good outlet pass is just as important in defence (Shatty is better at both), as tying people up along the boards. I also have a hard time agreeing that EJ is better with his stick defensively than Shatty - his reach would be better, but Shatty has a much higher hockey IQ.

I would also not agree that EJ is much more physical - EJ had about 60 more hits last season (130 to 70), but I would not say that makes EJ a physical defender (he was outside the top 30 defensemen for hits last year). Shatty also blocked more shots (9). He is being really underrated in his own zone while EJ is being very overrated.
That's... what EJ does. He separates the man from the puck with his body, takes it and skates it out. Sometimes deciding to skate it all the way through the neutral zone himself and start the play offensively.

What I don't understand is why EJ having 60 more hits than Kirk doesn't make him more physical, but Kirk blocking 9 more shots is a relevant discussion topic?

Shattenkirk cannot and does not control the play defensively like EJ will. It's just a fact, not even objectively capable of being discussed with stats. Shattenkirk can stop a play by being in the right position or using his stick effectively, but so can EJ and then some. EJ can also make the big hit, aka play more physically (which he does!).

Given what I typed above, I would argue that Shatty is closer to being a #1 Dman than EJ.
So argue for it?

The Blues 'offensive competence' starts with the defence making a good outlet pass or carrying the puck up the ice. If EJ was better this in regard, it would help the Avs offense and lead to more goals. Kind of a catch-22.

Look at last season, the Blues were 21st in scoring and 1st in goals against. Our defence was lead by Pietro (5th in Dman scoring) and Shatty (15th in Dman scoring). I think this stat is really telling of these two dman's quality when they can put up so many points on a offensively challenged team while playing outstanding defence.

If we had EJ instead of Shatty playing on our second pairing, I really do not think he would have put up more than 30 points and our defence would not have been improved. More realistically is that both categories would have been worse. Obviously no way to prove this...
Why are you comparing the Blues offense to the Avs offense and trying to say that either team would be any better switching players? That isn't even remotely related to the topic on hand.

The Avs as a whole are offensively anemic right now. We can't even cycle properly. What do you expect EJ to get points from?

His assist this season came on the result of going down low, winning a battle himself and passing it to a wide open PAP in the slot. If your defenders have to go down low behind the net in order to get points, you've got bigger problems than needing a more offensively minded guy.

All their points tell you is that your team's offense runs through the defense. It doesn't tell you Shattenkirk is better than EJ nor does it tell you that EJ would be better on the Blues than Shattenkirk. Quit trying to substitute completely separate statistical outcomes with eachother and roleplaying the results.

Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
You haven't watched Shattenkirk much. He's Dan you consider him a #3? A part of defense that you're not taking into consideration is the ability to get to loose pucks, as well as take chances and have the speed to recover. Shattenkirk is glowingly better at those than EJ...and has also put on 15lbs of muscle since leaving Col...he's not exactly the most fun person to play against. In fact, he was oft matched up against the other teams top lines last year due to Carlo being paired with Petro.

Yes EJ is a better defender. But the gap between Shatty and EJs defense isn't as large as you're making it seem.
Dan Boyle-esque and yet not as good as Dan Boyle. We (you and I, not other people) are caught up in semantics here. I consider a top pairing defender to require superb defensive acumen and only in very rare cases tolerate an unreal offensive production to substitute for defensive abilities (Green, Karlsson for instance). If a defender cannot be your go to go on the PK 6 minutes a night, I'm hesitant to believe he's a top pairing defender. On the other hand, a superb offensive defender with average to above average defensive abilities is easily a strong #3 defender that leads their pairing on the 2nd unit (or 1st for less skilled teams).

If EJ suddenly couldn't score, he could still provide you game changing defensive plays. If Shattenkirk suddenly couldn't score he'd be an above-average defender hardly getting 2nd pairing minutes.

Granted there's more to it than that, like how some of the best shutdown defenseman isn't a top pairing defender either. But my point is still the same, one of the two has top pairing defensive play.

Last edited by Lonewolfe2015: 01-30-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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