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02-02-2013, 11:56 PM
  #275
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Not true. In fact, he only finish top-five in PPG twice, only once before his first Hart. And if you seriously think he was considered "third-best" for MANY seasons... you're nuts.
Than who was? Between 1986 and 1992, 99 and 66 OWNED the second and first-team all-star center berths. . .except when Messier broke in there twice. And again, he won two Hart trophies against the toughest competition anyone has ever faced in that regard. Clarke won some against Orr, but Messier won them against Gretzky and Lemieux. Does even Beliveau do that? Throw in three dominant post-season runs, and the gap between Messier and the other guys you might consider becomes pretty wide.


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Yep, I'm sure Brian Leetch, who was a Norris contender while Messier was in Edmonton, was really going to have a problem having a good season without Messier. And I'm sure a Canadian offensive forward in Messier had an amazing amount to do with how well a young Russian defensive defenseman like Karpovtsev played. Did Karpovtsev even speak English at the time?
Yeah, let's forget about the leadership angle because, frankly, it allows too many posters to cry overrated and ignore the on-ice accomplishments which should speak for themselves.

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And one point you seem to have ignored is the fact that ZUBOV LED THE TEAM IN SCORING. Messier's supposed to be an elite center, and he can't even break Zubov's 89 points in the early 90s?
What does this prove? Zubov had an incredible season and never came close again. He outscored Brian Leetch that season, too. I don't think anyone would argue that Zubov was better offensively than Leetch and yet, it happened.

In 1995, Steve Yzerman got outscored by Ray Sheppard, Keith Primeau, Dino Ciccarelli and. . . offensive defenseman Paul Coffey. Oh yeah, all those guys had better PPG, too. Unlike Yzerman, Messier followed up his 1994 output with a strong playoff run. . .whereas Yzerman got outscored by Doug friggin' Brown.

You seem to want to focus on these little details as if they mean something. The fact is, every player has these anomalies throughout their career.

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Hmm. Actually, looking back at it, that was a difficult mark for Messier to hit. He only made it there nine times in his career.
You know Yzerman only did it nine times too, right? Ditto Trottier. Esposito seven times? Peter Stastny seven times? Denis Savard is another seven timer.

Thank you for pointing out that Messier's consistent offensive production is as good as any other human being of his era (excluding 99 and 66. . . not human).


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Only once did he score more than 60 points during the DPE, when a player with his physical traits would normally have had less trouble than the average player
The DPE started in 1997 (when the number of 110+ point players dropped from 6 the year before to 1, and the 50+ scorers dropped from 8 to 4). Messier had 84 points that year. 60 the next. And 67 in 2001. I won't bother with PPG in seasons where he missed a bunch of games but, suffice it to say, you're way off the mark here again.

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Messier is an incredibly overrated player. In 1990 he won the Hart trophy effectively because Jimmy Carson decided he could no longer play for the Oilers. Carson was traded to Detroit for a massive overpayment of wingers, and Messier received an incredible increase in ice time. This is notable because Messier was actually the second-line center on the Oilers during the 88-89 season (Carson centered Kurri and Tikkanen, Messier centered Simpson and Anderson).
You have no fact on which back this up. I suppose Carson is the no. 1 center because of his wingers? Who would break up Anderson-Messier? They were dominant for years, and Keenan even kept them together in the 1987 Canada Cup.

Kurri-Carson-Tikkanen made sense because both those guys were two-way wingers and capable of covering for the one-dimensional Carson. Carson outscored Messier by virtue of playing more games, but Messier had the superior PPG, on top of being a physical force and playing a ton on both special teams. Anyone who looks at Messier's 1989 season and says he wasn't a first-line center is kidding themselves.

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In 1992 he won the Hart because... New York? I still cannot deduce what possible reason so many voters had to give Messier the 1992 Hart. I get that he's physical. But his defensive game was never great, and was only just rounding into "good" around that time. Mario Lemieux won the Ross and scored more than 2 PPG that year (131 in 64), and wasn't even top three.
I think everyone is aware that Mario is a pretty good player. But you're listing his accomplishments here in a vacumn, Messier had an impressive 1992 too, and was a valid winner.

BTW, you know he won the Pearson that year too, right? That's two seperate groups of voters who judged him the best player in the game that year.

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And in 1990, Messier edged out Bourque in a controversial Hart vote, and won over Gretzky despite being beaten in the scoring race by 13 points.
Again, won the Pearson. Two groups of voters. Two MVP wins for Messier. Gee, you think there might be some validity to that?


Last edited by DisgruntledGoat: 02-03-2013 at 06:05 PM.
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