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12-16-2003, 03:05 PM
  #57
Edge
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Alright
The UN> As far as i'm concerned the USA needn't be a part of the UN or NATO. As Jefferson said be weary of one world government. I dont' think we needed their approval I'm sorry. We plead our case, no one wanted to listen so we go and do it with whomever is willing to help.
The only problem I had with Bush on this part was when he went back and asked for help later on. That was a cowardly thing to do and he should have just shown them his middle finger. Blix was an absolute moron when it came to running things there was a reason why he was choice number twenty something. Bush didn't feel Blix was doing a good job, so he took it into his own hands.
I'm guessing you mean having WOMD (damn i hate that phrase), why? Because as of now we haven't gassed and killed our own people inside of our own territory.
They did have a battle plan and to be honest it went pretty well. The full scale effort didnt' last too long.
Creating more messes? Well we're never going to agree on this.... we messed up when the US gave Iraq weapons, so it was finally time to go and make up for that mistake.
The WOMD thing is still unsettled, have they found anything yet? No, will they? Who knows there is alot of land to be searched (It's comparable to the size of Cali). I'm not convinced either way on that issue.
But see if we ignore then again you are opening up a huge can of worms. I mean if we can't follow them {and we helped set it up} then now we throw everything out the window. thats a very dangerous thing to do. no doubt jefferson and the founding fathers wouldnt want us in there, because they wouldnt have wanted us on the world political stage the begin with. we of course ignored that {going back to the early 1900's} and so now we HAVE to be in an organization like that. Here let me put it like this, say you have a 15 year old daughter when you are older. Now obviously you don't want her sleeping around but if she is going to, you at least want to tell her about certain "measures" that she can take to protect herself. ideally we arent the world's noisy neighbor, but we are. so if that is the case, the LEAST we can do is participate in the UN. believe me the UN is far from perfect, but the world is better with then without it.

As for the weapons, the fact is that SOMEONE would have said something by now. to save their butt or whatever. we can't find a SINGLE thing yet. and you know why the weapons of mass destruction term is used so much? because push harpded on it over and over as his reason for war. if you tell me you are buying a truck and every other word out of your mouth if "ford" and you come home with a pinto, yeah i am probably gonna start asking "what happened to ford?".

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I'm not turning this into a liberal vs conservative thing. I'm just saying that all liberals seem to do is complain complain complain but never do ANYTHING about it. Conservatives are just sissies the whole compassionant conservative thing is crap.
Well that i do agree with. i am not going to go out and protest and blah blah blah.

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Let's back things up a little bit I never ONCE said I was in favor of this war. We're over there so obviously there is a war. Bickering about it isn't going to change Bush's mind are you that misled?
not at all, but with that mindset nothing would EVER change. equal rights would be unheard of and we'd be in even worse shape then we are now. it's the mindset of complaining and forcing change that has made the US better over time, the nation that doesn't believe in progress, slowly starts to regress. You're right bickering isn't going to "change" his mind, but if enough people don't like it, like any politician he isn't going to push the issue. remember right after we went to iraq and the US started to say that libiya had "weapons of a mass destruction"? people were like "oh enough already" and you NEVER heard them mention it again.

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The only reason I even got into this discussion is because of your statement saying basically that this was fixed and arranged. In fact I'm not in favor of any military action. I don't belive the USA should take part in anyone else's problems. It's horrible what was happening to the people and all dont' get me wrong, but we've got our own problems in this country that we need to take care of first. Why am I in favor of staying there as long as need be? You dont' start something and not finish the job, we're already over there so it's time to bunker down take care of business and get back home. Capturing Sadam is a big part of that not because he was running things from his hole in the ground but because he's a figure head , I'm not ignorant enough to believe that this will stop the resistance, I never said that in fact Bush never said that either he said the opposite.
First of all, i never said it was fixed and arranged. i said it was ironic. which it is. whether it is all one giant cosmic coincidence or a plan, we won't know till you and i are old men. but if this was say, Russia, who went through these things, you can bet for sure people would think otherwise.

And the fact is yes at this point we do have to finish it, but we shouldnt have started it in the first place without stating the reasons and without trying every means necessary which no one outside of the US seems to believe. even dubya's own church wasn't of the belief he did all means necessary. i mean we have to ask ourselves is it everyone else, or is it us?



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Haha no no that's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is, instead of just bickering and whining about every little thing, take a minute think before you speak, organize TACTFUL groups and do something about it. Don't like the way your town is run? Run for office and/or vote. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion but that's not what's happening, I dont' hear any opinion from anyone other than "Bush bad".
Who is to say i haven't done? that's exactly what the upcoming elections are about. i vote every election, city, county,state, federal. believe especially living in vegas that isnt easy, we have so many dang positions i have to do a lot of research. having said that, i've given my reasons, and i'm making my voice heard in my actions come election time. and how can you say that i haven't given any other opinions? for pete's sake i've practically written a book in this forum at this point? What do you want me to write a 100 page disrotation? i'm interested in other points, but no one is giving me any now. they have been few and far between in a sea of insults and remarks. i've explained my views, the backing behind them and tried to answer every question asked. no one on the reverse side of the argument has done that really.

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Why this spot? I honestly couldn't tell you. Did GW only care about oil? Maybe but I lean more towards I dont' think so. I really dont' think it has anything to do with his dad and the Gulf War. It may seem that way at face value but alot of things do.
well the fact is that so far no other "reasons" have come out and that's why so many people have had a problem with this war. if he had said in the begining to the american people what saddam was doing {and many people knew} i probably don't have as big of a problem. but he didn't and he has backtracked on everything he said and shifted the blame to everyone else. when clinton did it about sexual relations, the nation had a cow. now bush has done it about a war and everyone wants to look the other way. not for anything but between the two, i think a war is a slightly bigger thing to backtrack and double talk about.

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Maybe I didnt' spell it out clearly enough, I apologize for that. The vietnam thing was meant to say going to a country and fighting a war that's a lost cause, one that you can't win. One thing you ALWAYS have to remember about a fight or war is the strength of your opponent. As of right now N. Korea is very dangerous belive me I agree whole heartedly that guy is a nutball, but there's no way we go in there and win. They have the added strength of the lay of the land.
and what exactly is a "Win" situation about iraq? the government is on shakey ground, we've put another "puppet" government in and they are in BIG trouble right now. 500 troops have been killed since may as the "army is defeated". that is never going to stop, NEVER. one of the reasons that region is not a big fan of us is because of constant involvement. so getting more involved is going to help that? the war last 6
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months, the effects of it are gonna be felt a lot longer my friend.

As for the North Korea thing look above. Are we fighting evil or are we picking our spots? It's a tough call to answer honestly. I'm not sure I don't believe Saddam posed as much of a threat as N.Korea poses but hey if you have the chance to take an evil dictator out of power you have to make the call on whether or not to go for it. GW made one choice, (I'm not sure I would have made the same call) and now we have to stay there until the job is done. Regressing a bit to Kosovo when I said they have nothing we want I mean why would we step in if they're not threatening us? The US needs to stop policing the world and take care of their own problems.
okay so what if north korea bombs us tomorrow, all of our troops are on the other side of the planet. but see no one thinks about that because "we vanquished evil". That is EXACTLY why you don't fight unless you have to, because you leave yourself very wide open. there are already more than few generals and higher up's who are a little concerned about how thin we are spreading ourselves. so it's not just an uneducate civilian "thing".

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Is it really that hard? I would think so. There was a 25million dollar reward and still people FEAR him. I saw a clip of him at a political meeting 3 people stood up and disagreed with him, after that they were sent outside and executed on spot. This can be tough to fathom but can you imagine, disagreeing with Bush at a meeting he has you sent outside and shot in the head? Now imagine a decade of this, how willing would you be to send information out? I'd be pretty scared for my life if I did.
and i am AGAIN not saying that saddam was a good man, BUT again no one knows why Iraq. now if we've been to a war and we cant answer that question, don't you honestly think something is a little wrong here? If Bush had said "look i think the guy is cruel, sick, a detriment to the world and etc. etc." i think we can at least point to that. HOWEVER he didnt say that until it looked more and more like the weapons werent gonna be found. i mean the white house POUNDED that into their message. They POUNDED it into their message to the US citizens, to the world and to the UN. Why aren't they talking about it now then? You've slowly been hearing about it less and less until now when i haven't heard it at all. same thing with osama bin laden. he was gonna get the guy, he was gonna get the guy. You hear almost nothing about the man now.

and bush gets on the stages and smirks and smiles and jokes. he puts on an airforce uniform, poses for some pictures and he goes home to the whitehouse. he doesnt get snipped at by guerilla warriors, his daughters arent out there fighting. and that's not just a knock on bush, that is a knock on ALL these politicians. it sickens me.

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If they catch Usama bin laden in october or november I'll eat my words and I'll even send you a video taped apology and it's in writing right here. I'll be a man and fess up to being wrong, but if it doesn't happen would you do the same? Or will we get the same old addage, "Eh it just wasn't the right time yet"
Well either way i want him in captivity. if it doesn't happen i'll say "that sucks" if it does i will be happy to be honest, but i will suspect something if it happens right before the election. i am not accusing bush of anything because i honestly couldnt prove it one way or the other, but you cant tell me that the timing of these things isnt a little funny? unfortunatly bush has himself in a boy who cried wolf situation now. he is screwed either way. he doesnt produce osama and he is gonna get blasted. he produces him right before the election and it is more of the same. BUT why is he even those circumstances in the first place? it's the same thing as a court trial. you get enough circumstantial evidence around you and even if you are found not guilty, there is gonna be some questions about you. is there a pattern, is it intentional? i dont know. no one knows but bush. is it more than a little weird? you have to at least give it that. he's not guilty of anything without evidence, but you have to be at least a little suspicious?


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**** happens and things get messed up. Need another example? Bay of Pigs and Kennedy.


#1-People die everyday it's a fact of life.
#2- It's their job. As harsh as that may sound, they get paid to put their life on the line and not question authority. (Those were the reasons I gave up my full ride scholarship for AFROTC). And I know it sounds horrible but that's what happens when you sign up for the military. .
I'm not sure what you mean by the last two sentences so I'll skip those.
And people get drunk and run over kids everyday, but that doesn't mean i wanna shove alcohol in their mouths and push them into a car. and yes that is there job, and it is a custodians job to clean a school but you don't allow kids to take a crap on a cafeteria table either. those people are there to serve and protect the people of this country, not to serve alternative means and political agendas. that is why NO ONE has a problem with them being in afghanistan, but people do have a problem with iraq.

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This is one reason I respect Bush, for once a Republican is doing what he thinks is right and is putting his neck on the line for doing it. If the majority of people think he's messed up then he won't be in office next term.

I can sort of agree, it becomes anti-bush when all people do is critique him and no one else. (This is NOT directed at you but in general). Only having two major parties is a HUGE problem in this country and will suffer until people stop only looking at the two sides (dem and rep)
and i honestly dont know who i am voting for yet. but people doing just what they think is right is kinda scary. so based on that, anyone can do anything because they it is right. maybe other countries are doing some messed up things because THEY think it is right also. But i think life requires a little more vision then that. and bush above anything else is a politician and like any politician he has factors that drive him. and that is scary, no matter what party they are. but a war is just about the highest level of factors you can deal with even under the right circumstances and reasons, let alone mysterious ones.


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First off no one wins in wars. There are two losers one just becomes the ultimate loser (ugh sorry that sounds cheezy but lack of words there sorry). I don't think that's the case Edge, in fact i think it will be the exact opposite look what happened in Japan. The same thing everyone thought we were horrible for dropping a nuke on both Nagasaki and Hiroshima yet every time I see something on it, there are always Japanese saying yes it was a horrible thing but it was a necessary evil at the time. Now I'm not comparing the actions simply the effects later on.
but you talk to alot of japanese people and it WASNT alright. and the reason japan is the way they are today is because we pretty much leveled them and said "Be like us". a lot of those responses are to not hurt business deals with american corporations, the japanese society is all about "face". you do not insult people to their face. not saying that is right, just saying that is the way the culture. it is a very interesting one. if you have a chance visit it, it is VERY complicated and double faced. that was a battle for resources and it wasn't a "religous mindset", this is a whole different culture and their hatred towards us goes beyond simple warfare {not that it is simple, but you knew what i mean}. This is spiritual and as i said about politics, people will do ANYTHING in the name of god.
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One last question though, how do we get to choose our own coffins? i thought it was our relatives and/or friends that did that.
I want my body to be filled with animitronics so i can pop out of my coffin and wave to people....... it would probably cause a few to join me.


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I'm not a war freak believe me war is the last thing that I wanted to see happen. I'm still not sure if it was the right thing to do, but the fact of the matter is we're over there now. We captured an important piece and he can now be brought to justice (How they;re going to do it is WAY beyond me though).
BUT the only way to avoid future "mistakes" is to evaluate not only what we HAVE done, but what we ARE doing. it goes back to making progress. you are right, no one can change what HAS happened but we can still change what WILL happen.

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Edge brilliant finish when you said we do need to pick our spots..... that's where most of the disagreement takes place, was it the right spot or not? This issue will NEVER be put to bed and will always be debated.

Again anyways I'm done with this thread I'm too worn out and I need some rolling papers so I'm going to go get some of those and roll a nice spliff.
well that is where the debate comes from and for me, it also comes down to if we are going to war, i wanna know why. i dont want an excuse i want a reason. dont tell me one thing and drum it up and then make it disappear in order to save face. people need to thing before we go into war and why we go. it isnt a "light" subject. if they are gonna to lie to us about something as severe as a war, then again my question is "what should i believe that you say?".

As for PM that's cool, i dont see one. but i am all for talking about things. but that is the key word, if someone wants to talk i can at least respect that. like here now, i don't necessarily agree with liquid clown but i can respect his views because he expressed them. but like he doesnt just want "bush is bad" responses, i dont want "just because" responses.

for me it's like debating hockey {To an extent} in that i dont care if you don't agree with me, just as long as there is a mutual respect towards ideas. unfortunatly on an issue like that, we soth both sides NOT honoring that social agreement.

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