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02-10-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawker14 View Post
I thought this would be a landslide for Stevie Y.
Not on HF, where top offensive players are automatically the best, but recent performances are weighed far more heavily. Kind of like the "Ovechkin is washed up" mindset. In 2010-11 he scored 85 points and finished 7th in scoring, beaten at LW by only Ross winner Daniel Sedin, and was 12 points ahead of any other LWer. People were saying it was a joke that he was the second-teamer.

Yzerman being older is what costs him this comparison.

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
If you remove Gretzky and Lemieux (and make reasonable assumptions about their linemates), here's how Sakic and Yzerman would have finished in the scoring race:
Their "adjusted" finishes are:

Sakic - 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8
Yzerman - 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 10

It's closer than the unadjusted numbers show, but Sakic is still ahead.

To make it clear - the purpose of this post is to compare their ranking in the scoring race, "adjusted" for the presence of Gretzky, Lemieux and their linemates. It is not intended to take other factors (defense, playoffs, awards, etc) into account.

If you disagree with my assumptions let me know - trying to be as transparent as possible.
Now let's add in another factor:

Removing Gretzky and Lemieux:

Fedorov - 1, 8
Coffey - 6
Shanahan - 8

Forsberg - 1, 2, 4, 4, 9
Hejduk - 4
Tanguay - 9
Sundin - 10

I'd say Sakic had a tad more offensive help.

Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Sakic by an absolute hair. The fact that he had tremendous longevity and durability is the deciding factor for me, including arguably the most impressive season by a near forty year-old in league history (100 points in 2006-07).

They were both accomplished defensive players and Yzerman has the Selke from 2000, in addition to the best individual season between the two (1989) so I can see why some people would choose him. You'd be hard-pressed to find two more comparable players however.
Yzerman was a better defensive player coming into the league than Sakic was, and he was a better defensive player at their relative defensive peaks. Sakic was always primarily focused on offense, and in his early career was fairly one-dimensional. With Yzerman, he was focused on offense-first in his early career, but was still good defensively (Demers double-shifted him on the checking line) and he was capable of peforming shut-down duties (he was used to check Gretzky in the 1987 Campbell Conference Finals).

Originally Posted by ot92s View Post
I remember in the late 80's in some games yzerman would be centering two different lines. Stat analysis can tell you who to look at but you really need to eyeball test these comparisons, until we get ice time numbers with any kind of reliability.
As I was saying, Yzerman was used on scoring and checking lines. When Demers was coach he'd generally be the 1C and 3C.

Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
Damnit Sakic, why couldn't you just wear number 27 or something then this question wouldn't be asked every other week.

and my answer... I take Mark Messier over either of them any day of the week without thinking twice
Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
There really is no argument for having Sakic or Yzerman over Messier.
Because Messier was so much better at both ends, with all of his Selke nominations and impressive offensive performances?

Or, Messier could have been a very good player who wasn't quite on Yzerman's level (Sakic, it's arguable).

Yzerman was probably the worst captain in the league before Bowman got a hold of him..and he was not liked at all at the start by Bowman.

There is a classic tale where Bowman suggested to Red Wings owner Mike Illitch that the Red Wings trade Yzerman and use the money saved to get the Detroit Tigers a good starting pitcher.
Never heard the starting pitcher one, that's new. But the Yzerman trade isn't a "suggestion" thing. The Wings had a co-GM thing going on at the time, and an actual trade was submitted to the league office by Bowman in February 1996. The trade?

Ottawa receives Steve Yzerman and Chris Osgood

Detroit receives Alexei Yashin, Damian Rhodes (LOL), and Ottawa's 1996 and 1997 first round draft picks (Ottawa picked Phillips and Hossa).

Thankfully, Jimmy Devellano vetoed the trade. Amusingly, it was Bowman's third attempt to replace Osgood as Wings starter since he ripped it away from Tim Cheveldae early in his rookie year, and Osgood was a Vezina nominee that season also. Yzerman also had an impressive season (95 points and a Selke nom).

Sakic a great player of course I have him slightly ahead of Yzerman but there is no question they are both a tier below Messier.
No question? And statemens like this are why the "Is Messier overrated?" thread exists.

Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
close poll. took Sakic based on having been, at his peak, elite both offensively and defensively. Tired old words here, but - Yzerman had two separate peaks.
Let's look at this. We can all agree that both became much better defensive players towards the end of their careers than they were at the beginnings.

Now let's compare their overlapping seasons (88-89 through 05-06).

By points, the top three scorers:
1. Sakic 1237GP, 574-915-1489
2. Jagr 1109GP, 591-841-1432
3. Yzerman 1159GP, 528-817-1345

Average per-82:
Jagr: 44-62-106
Sakic: 38-61-99
Yzerman: 37-58-95

So, pretty close right?

Let's consider their defensive games. Sakic started getting Selke consideration and even a nomination towards the end of their "overlap period". Yzerman had a first-place vote in the very first year, was nominated multiple times with several top-five finishes and a Selke win.

Is that worth four points? A goal and three assists?

So now we're left with comparing what they did outside of their overlap.

Sakic had a 100-point season, than two partial seasons. Yzerman also had a 100-point season, but did it in only 64 games. He also had a pair of 80-point seasons and a 90-point season.

Yzerman outperformed Sakic overall while both were in the league, and while only one was in the league. Sakic had an excellent career, but he comes away in second place.

Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
But looking back at some of the wingers that Sakic played with, its pretty remarkable the impact hes had on them. Tanguay, Hejduk, Brunette, Fleury, Kariya.
Yeah, Sakic really had a huge impact on Fleury, who was older and was a star in the league before Sakic was. Or Kariya, who was an elite player with Anaheim before he played with Colorado.

Where Yzerman had a prime Shanny on his wing every year (except for the last couple).
See my note about scoring finishes earlier. Shanahan finished 8th (no Gretz/Lemieux) once, and that was his first year in Detroit. It wasn't even his peak; he peaked in St. Louis.

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