View Single Post
Old
02-11-2013, 09:47 PM
  #287
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
Magician
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 60,481
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pros and Cons View Post
Using me as an example, I was enjoying our debate BBO. I trust I wasn't stepping out of line and coming off incorrectly.
Not using you as an example at all, 2 posters were getting into it in a way that wasn't adding to the thread so that is who my post was directed at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Hey, we have this 23 year old vet and he's OVER 1PPG, pretty good eh?

Yeah man - that's awesome. But how are his faceoffs?

Oh, bad - less than 40% this year.

What? That's a garbage player - we need to get rid of him ASAP. Trade him straight up for Zenon Konopka. Because scoring goals doesn't win hockey games, winning faceoffs does.


I just have to laugh at the people so entrenched in their negative view of Gagner that they refuse to acknowledge what is staring them straight in the eye - even with his deficiencies, the kid is a very very good 2C - borderline 1C.

Keep harping on "not strong enough", "not good enough on faceoffs" while he's making spectacular plays all over the ice and leading this team in scoring.

He has been light years ahead of the golden child RNH this year. (this'll bring em out of the woodwork ) - easily our best C so far, AINEC.
He has been good offensively and at this production level is a VERY good offensive 2C. However I guess it's easier to look at the goals and assists column and just brush off his deficiencies because it has to be posters that have an axe to grind with him personally or something. In terms of offense he has been our best center to this point, in terms of all 3 zones and facing the other teams top players he's not #1, not by a long shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
heh, the guy is talking about birds, eagles, and undefined tools and its a good post. At least you know why you feel that way.
Mother nature rocks, remember the spiders old friend?

Quote:
heh

Oh, I don't miss this stuff.
Flashbacks of a time gone by?

Quote:
I'n chronically guilty of overthinking but even I don't think its imperative to make moves today to cover up weaknesses that we might have in a contending team years down the road. The only constant being that a lot changes between then and now. As much as I like all the players you mention all have limitations. What has Getzlaf done lately and without Pronger what would he have ever accomplished in his career besides nothing? Which brings up the real point that its world class D that create shutdown. We have one of those now. You know the Schultz I'm talkng about. The brilliant one.
True, a competent or better yet elite defense sure helps to cover a lot of what ails a team.

Quote:
Stoll wasn't all that great at faceoffs either at one point. I seem to recall Adam Oates taking the centers under his wing. Trouble is we don't have a good on ice teacher in that regard. horc isn't too accomplished himself or we wouldn't be having years of problems.
Belanger has been a faceoff ace for many years, the mentor is there if the youngsters seek him out. IMO this year he seems much more entrenched in the team than he was last year.

Quote:
Well I'm not sure what to say about this. Thornton can muscle anybody around and bull to the net. Most forwards don't stand much of a chance with this guy.
RNH's ability to stop and start on a dime and use his stick defensively gives most players fits, it is amazing how good he is defensively at this age, TBH I'm marveling at it almost as much as I was marveling at his offensive skill last season.

Quote:
Pretty sure I acknowledged that earlier. Curiosly enough there was no end of people busy here getting rid of Stoll before and after that year because he just ain't good enough. But now he's he guy we need. I don't disagree but we discard our players like confetti.
I was one of them because I didn't want to pay him like a 2C when he was coming off of multiple concussions.

Quote:
I expect Gagner to get stronger and imagine he will. Obviously no Brindy, but enough that he could stand in the dot better and contain better. Above we're comparing Gagner to a couple players much older than him and who were in prime of life, and Stoll who is just a fine broth of a lad.
He has been getting stronger, slower than I'd like, but there are strides being made in that regard. But even though he is stronger his faceoff % has actually tanked from a somewhat respectable % last season.

Quote:
In my view we win because we are an explosive team with speed, skill that other clubs have difficulty containing. We win through puck possession, smart play up and down the ice, and through whittling our opponents down.
You usually need a few horses to sit on the puck in the o zone to do that at times, we really don't have those guys in the top 6 right now.

Quote:
Kreugers view is that we win by making other clubs worry about our arsenal and damage we can do rather then what the opponent can do. What this does is open things up somewhat so that the offensive plaeyrs on this club can get confident. work in progress obviously but I think we had been over rating our D. I really don't think it was that good and Petry, Smid, Whitney, Peckham, etc being chronically over rated. Now that we have a ringer like J Schultz people can see plain as day what a very good D looks like in comparison. Hopefully Klefbom isn't too put behind schedule without all the hockey he's missed. Maybe Fistric learns some things. I really think we have to have better D overall.
IMO Petry not playing has hurt us a bit, hopefully he rebounds and comes on strong the rest of the way. Smid needs to be better as well. Whitney is done like dinner, N. SChultz is a useful player, Fistric is a role player, and J. Schultz is a stud, plain and simple.

Quote:
When I look back at the Carolina series I don't think they beat us at the Center position at all. I think we were stronger at that position. How Carolina beat us is through scoring depth. They had mixed lines of scoring. Really after game one Brindy didn't do a whole lot in that series. Without the first game Roli disaster I don't know if he's big in that game either.
It's been too long, I remember Cole's return not helping us much. Staal had to have been a force I would think, and let's not forget Ward who was solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With all due respect this is silly.

Theres zero validity in posting GFOn/OFF stats at this point. This is a known. These stats have no statistical validity at such limited sample size nor do they correct which players are corelated on the ice.

Everything you stated above is likely explained by one variable. Matched D pairings. The topline has often had the number 1 pair Schultzes on it while the second line has often had Whitney and whatever other dreck. I assure you that would be the salient operative variable right now.

Interestingly this changed yesterday and I welcome it. Nice to see Gagner getting the support of J Schultz and rid of Whitney for at least one game.

Heres a simpler stat but probably more meaningful.

Gagner 13pts

Nuge 5pts (despite that Nuge is playing with the most elite talented players on the club and with J Schultz driving much of the production that the line has)
Nuge has 6, he assisted on "the great one's" 13th point

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post
Gagner plays with Whitney 3:48min/G

Gagner plays with Potter 2:16min/G

RNH plays with Whitney 3:23min/G

RNH plays with Potter 1:54min/G

Basically 20 seconds difference.

You can call the stats silly, but you asked for some concrete evidence. I guess I could comb thru the video archives and show you examples of why I think RNH has improved his defensive zone play by leaps and bounds, but like you said, we all have our own points of view, and those aren't likely to change.
Thanks for the spade work bellagio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
You've got it wrong. ftr I have some university background in stats and a firm understanding of the same. There used to be a limited sample disclaimer on Behind the Net that even stated that limited samples of this duration are not necessarily statistically significant. Thats what I was stating. Most people pulling any stats from the board are aware of this.

Usually I would quote something like this after say 40GP. Also, I would NEVER quote such derivatives as Corsi, Relative Corsi, TEam Corsi ever, and consider them largely to be noise. I don't mind the raw data from Behind the nets and tend to stick to that in anycase.

bellagio is a fine poster and I've given him multiple credits in the thread. Sincerely as well. Guy looks to be digging and proving me wrong on a couple things. Full value for that and I can only thank him. Which I have.
Good stuff, no one ever enjoys admitting that they are wrong, but admitting it is a solid character trait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Thanks again, does work now. Looks like I'm flat out wrong re: Whitney and its odd because I recall seeing Whitney on the ice so much when that line is struggling.

First line is seeing quite a lot more of the Schultz as Indicated. That is going to likely help the first line and mask any deficiency there.

It would help the second line as well. Unfortunately right now we only have one D pair playing well.

Anyway much appreciated.
No one wants to see Potter or especially Whitney out with their favorite players We've both seen enough Whitney for our lifetimes and a few more

__________________
Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote