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02-13-2013, 08:39 PM
  #864
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
It does matter, if the guy is one of 5-6 other guys that are equally as important, and those 5-6 guys can all be acquired without tanking then you don't need to tank.
Nobody is arguing that only top picks win cups. We're arguing that they are an important ingredient to most cup winning teams. I don't care if Lafleur isn't as important as Dryden or Robinson... fact is he's a huge part of that team, just like Lemieux, Modano or Staal.

(And actually Dryden was traded for as a prosepct too)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If he was the best player you could argue you can only get players that good with a high draft pick. If most of the core guys were high draft picks you could argue you can't get enough players any other way. But that's not the case.
I'm not trying to argue that you can't get players any other way. We all know you can. Hell there HAS to be stars picked elsewhere because there's only so many top picks to go around.

The difference is that you can't count on those picks to turn into stars the way you can if you have multiple top picks. You are better off with 3 top five picks than you are with 15 picks from 11-30. Five times as many picks and you'll STILL wind up with fewer superstars. And finding them beyond the first round is like finding a needle in a haystack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Which is proof that you don't need to intentionally tank. You can still try for the playoffs every year, and when it's not your year you trade away UFAs and try again next year.
We wasted YEARS doing this. It got us nowhere. Why do you want to continue down this path when we've seen that it doesn't work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
No the worst case scenario is you put your prospects into roles they can't succeed in. They lose confidence, stagnate and we lose them for nothing. We could also develop a losing culture which is often hard to change without a drastic overhaul.

You're risking a lot more.
We've already developed a culture of apathy here. We've developed a culture where 8th place is the bar for success. I'd much rather see a GM come in and work towards building a cup... we aren't risking anything but 8th place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I understand perfectly well, it's just you're speculating wildly so why would I accept that.

Before the lockout we were a budget team that couldn't compete with the big spenders. Even if we had tanked for years we wouldn't of won anything because you needed a huge payroll or tons of luck. So what happened in the late 90s early 2000s is irrelevant. The landscape is completly different now.

You seem to always ignore this crucial point. Even when you are fighting for 8th every year, some years things will go wrong and when they do that's when you sell UFAs and make rebuilding moves. Just like we did last year.

You can make rebuilding moves and fight for the playoffs every year.

You say it's lead us nowhere yet we now have a franchise Goalie, 2 1st line forwards, and a top pairing D. On top of that we have a bunch of quality vets, and a relatively good prospect pool. How has it led us nowhere?
We have a franchise goalie because we won a onetime lottery with a top five pick. We had no business getting that pick and lucked out. He was our first top five in 20 years man! And.... he just happens to be our best player.

Yet for some reason you want to argue against rebuilding? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Then you need another dose of common sense. Every player is available if you are willing/able to overpay. If someone offered 10 1st round picks for Souray do you really think Gainey would've said no thanks I want to make the playoffs? No he would've taken the deal and run. We don't know what value Gainey placed on Souray, was it 10 picks? 5? 3? We can assume it was more than 1 because no doubt teams offered at least that. So when you say if you don't get the value you want then don't make the deal. That's exactly what we've done. You can argue how much value a UFA Souray had to the Habs but don't say only trade players if you get good value and then complain we didn't trade players when we could've.

Dumping half the team and then getting Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, Moen, Spacek, Gill was rebuilding. It just wasn't rebuilding through the draft. If instead of Gomez we had gotten a legitimate #1 C then we would likely have been contenders the last couple of years. We finished 6th with Gomez giving us 37pts, if he could've put up 80 we would've easily have been fighting at the top. So it could've worked if we used the capspace wisely. Boston did and became a contender. NYRs dumped some bad contracts and picked up better players and are now contenders. So it works just like rebuilding through the draft can work.
It's not rebuilding man... As for Souray, again see what we dealt Rivet for. Yet somehow you're arguing that we couldn't have done better?

We didn't want to finish 9th. We wanted 8th so we held onto him. Then we missed and he left. That's the kind of short term thinking we saw for years and it's killed us.

Last year was no different. Our GM went for quick fixes and desperation moves designed to get us to 8th. He didn't care about the future. Fortunately he sucked at his job and we got a top 3 pick out of it but we still wasted assets and saddled ourselves with stupid contracts along the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Because they are not being wasted.
Yeah dude, they are. We are squeezing the trade value out of these guys as we pursue 8th place and a 1st round knockout.

Building towards a cup is not the same as scrambling to make 8th. You have to take longer term moves if you want to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
They could but probably have less of a shot then we do because it's less likely Reimer gets hot compared to Price.
I love Price but we're not winning a cup this year dude...

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