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02-18-2013, 08:51 PM
  #109
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wow, you think that is actually a fair comparison? Think about what you did there, that is, if you didn't actually know what you were doing from the start.

No, Forsberg wasn't #1, jagr was. And who cares if he was on the same team as Sakic?
You called Forsberg the "#1 mortal" as you did with Yzerman in that particular post. Does that mean you rank Jagr alongside Lemieux and Gretzky all-time?

Quote:
But Fedorov... that guy probably took points away from Yzerman, right?
He certainly didn't cause as much offensive inflation. They played on separate lines at ES and PP. Forsberg and Sakic played together on the PP often and even had a couple large stretches in the regular season where they were on a line together. The only time Yzerman and Fedorov were on the same "regular" line was in the 2001-02 playoffs. And Yzerman outscored Fedorov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Talk about cherrypicking stats.
Hint: Sakic entered the league 5 years later. Plus leaguewide GPG.
I don't see how it's cherry picking stats; it's a direct comparison of their total offensive output while both players were in the league. And you want to complain about league-wide GPG? If we remove the 2002-03 season from the equation, Sakic and Yzerman both missed about 70 games from 1996-97 through 2003-04. In 2002-03 Yzerman missed almost the entire season (played 16 games) due to knee surgery that was unprecedented for an active athlete, and Sakic missed 24 games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
For the record I voted Yzerman. I do give him credit for being behind only Gretzky and Lemieux offensively while playing with Probert and Gallant.

Yzerman had the one major season that stands out - but I'd be a hypocrite to use that season as my argument when I'm not using it to rank Lafontaine over Modano in the Best Americans thread.
Yzerman had 87-88, where he had 50-52-102 (equivalent to 63-65-128 on a full, healthy year and behind only Lemieux, Gretzky, and Savard on the full season. Yzerman obviously has his 88-89 season. In 89-90, he was right up there as well, with Messier jumping into the group after Carson walked out on the Oilers and ended up traded to Detroi, and Mess ended up basically centering two lines. And then Yzerman was still a top scorer over the next few seasons, despite being used in sort of a three-center platoon by Bryan Murray. 1992-93 is another notable year, and part of that is due to Carson being traded to LA and Yzerman reclaiming ice time.
Quote:
But I do however put Yzerman slightly ahead of Sakic. I think he had more of the ability to make everyone on the other team look stupid. As was stated, the only real wrong answer is if someone pretends there's some kind of significant gap - there just isn't.
I would agree with Yzerman having that quality, but I don't know if I'd judge a player based on it. Alexei Kovalev being "incredibly talented" is based on that idea. And in his prime, he did exactly that. He dominated the league and that was about the best way of describing his performance.

But at the same time, Alexei Yashin was capable of doing that kind of thing. And to continue with the Russian theme, there are guys like Alexander Radulov.

Do we rank those guys ahead of a Steve Larmer, Keith Tkachuk, or Mike Gartner who was at their best one of the league's top players but was never a "flashy" player (even despite Gartner's superhuman speed) who "made the opponent look stupid". But then I think that the best modern example I can think of for this is Henrik Zetterberg; he's not flashy, just incredibly effective. And I realize how underrated Zetterberg is compared to other players who bring more flash with their game.

So maybe it's true that a lot of what people think of in ranking players All-Time is based on flash. I certainly think that's the case with Messier, although his "flash" was his aggressive physical game - something unusual for top end centers.

And I think a lot of what people think in Yzerman vs. Sakic has to do with their recollection of the players. I know that other posters have hinted at this, but although Sakic only entered the league five years later (and left three later) his prime began seven years later. Yzerman's prime was ending twenty years ago, Sakic's was ending ten years ago. Twenty year old posters remember that Sakic was awesome and that Yzerman was "a future HHOFer who captained a great Wings team, but wasn't the star on it." A twenty-five year-old poster would have been twelve or possibly thirteen when Yzerman won the Selke and was named to the first-team in 2000, and only 8-9 when he was first nominated for the Selke. That means 7 or under when Yzerman was in his prime.

Chris Chelios is an excellent example of how younger posters remembering only last impressions of a great player who ended in decline can lower that player's ranking. I can tell you that Chris Pronger and Martin Brodeur will probably also see this effect. Sergei Fedorov seems to have suffered it pretty heavily as well, as the general opinion of him seems to have dropped considerably in the past couple of seasons.

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