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02-20-2013, 12:59 AM
  #24
Up the Irons
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No, Jagr isn't going to be there with Beliveau. People pointed out things already that I agree with. We need to make it clear that Lafleur is inferior to him. I think Jagr beats Lafleur overall in his career but it gets hazy after that. Messier, Esposito and even Mikita are guys you have to tackle. Maybe we can agree that Sakic and Yzerman are a small notch below Jagr and for that matter, Trottier and Schmidt. But there are so many factors when it comes to Messier that this is hardly a clear cut case against Jagr. Esposito in my mind is equal in many ways to Jagr. Style-wise they couldn't be more different but when you judge Esposito you judge effectiveness which is what you essentially judge all players by. Mikita, like Messier, is a guy where you have to factor in defensive awareness. And then to really make it muddy you have the wild card in Morenz.

So if he can get past all of those guys only then can you ask about Hull, Richard or Beliveau. I personally have Beliveau #5 and that isn't uncommon. Hull led the NHL in goals a record 7 times and even if you don't count his WHA career - and I don't rely on it - he still has a career where he really doesn't have a prime, he was always great. Richard and Beliveau both have the regular season hardware as well as being two players I think you would have to put in the top 5 clutch players to ever play. Yes, even Beliveau who is very close to Richard in that category.

Then getting away from non-forward players you have Roy, Hasek, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom. Hall is another one. So is Plante and Sawchuk. I think it is a little tricky to put Jagr at #6 all-time like you said. I think he falls in around a top 15 player, which is hardly a knock. The NHL has been around for so long so it isn't like there aren't a slew of players with great careers.
good point.

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