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02-21-2013, 10:45 AM
  #63
Bryanbryoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadMedicine View Post
Yea right first we give them Stoll and a bunch of other guys and now they want Sam who is the system master, forget about it.

Without solid system data and future system plans I cannot properly valuate either player enought to decide this.

It is my opinion that the Oilers are missing the boat in terms of Intuative Analysis and considerations at an organisational level, and this means thay are lost in space systemwise they cant even define the one they use now.

The Oilers have used the same system for at least 15 yrs, an adjusted hybrid, i dont know what they have called it or what the NHL calls it, but the NHS calls it an adjusted hybrid. It is a system that uses a set defensive scheme combined with a creative o-zone entry tactic, this is all based on a fastbreak or a variation of the fast break play initiated by the defense to expedite passage through the neutral zone. In effect it is designed to beat the old trap system.

Right now our coaches are using a specific set of system dynamics that create uber-offense within the adjusted hybrid as their performance bar of excellence, this is not realistic. We can initiate the offense and create mega shots but we wont be scoring a mega amount of goals MORE than the opponent because to get these shot results we need to adjust our defensive zone exits and this compromises the adjusted hybrids defensive base and the system begins to collapse, if we fall behind and try to tighten the defense up we collapse faster. we are trying to create this level of offense without compromising the defensive scheme and it isnt working and never will. Rakph is simply learning what Mac-Y already knows very well, the limitations of his system, my advice is to ask Mac-T to replay his run to the finals and then replay LAs cup win and then post here and tell me Badmedicine what looks the same in those two pictures, because LA executed the adjusted hybrid perfectly last year based on the NHS data that is available and they attained results very much like mac-T did when he has the system wide open.

If we use the system we are using now I have to keep Hemmer because sooner or later Ralph willl break or go bald and we will go back to the exact system execution we have used for 15 yrs, its just that we will be utilising an average system with elite players, ha ha ha. Then we will need Hemmer badly. Ifthis team went to a pure NHS system and abandoned the adjusted hybrid then Gagner would win the toss but i would need both of them and be wiling to pay to get them.

I believe Sam Gagner has the potential to lead a team to the Stanley Cup if given the opportunity. I know Hemmer can pave the way if he can get close enough.

I dont know how these guys valuate players other than as per specific system needs and requirements and because no one really discusses system dynamics specificly we
are in the absolute dark. This is why pro teams wont openly discuss systems because systems are like star witnesses in a mob trial baby they know everything, so they are kept under the tightest security because if anyone knows the system then they know if you have been running it effectively or running it into the ground. If you tread in that area it is tough sledding man, people arent used to discussing dynamic actions and reactions like the ones you need to deal with when you are a coach of any type of team. Most people are or were players and we all know all players dont make decent coaches. So its a tough area to delve into. watch Ralphs practice video from today and count how many times he refers to the system, then go over all his interviews and count how many times he is specific when he does use the word system, ha ha ha, its like the Caramilk secret, or Area 51, ha ha ha.
So based on your beliefs you feel that even though MacT left, the system that we've played since then is exactly the same? Did you watch enough OKC games this season to know if there was much of a difference between Nelson's system and Krueger's/MacT's? Gagner or Hemsky would be great on LA because they need offsense badly and both of our guys have it in them to produce. However unlike us they are a pretty complete team with the exception of having enough gamebreakers up front and injuries to their defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Thanks for your measured response to my grumpy post BBO. I'm getting sick of all the trade talk after a loss, so it culminated with me taking it out on you.

Sorry about that.

If there is any possible way we could keep both of these guys, it would make me happy. I want to see both of these players who we drafted, and have spent the better part of their careers on a crappy club, lift a cup in Oiler colors.

If we HAVE to pick, I'd agree with moving Hemsky because of what others have mentioned, we have enough wingers and are very shallow at center depth. If and when either player is moved, it better be for a game breaker.
The way that I see it is that if we keep both then we need an elite 3C to make this thing work. ie.

Kid line
Nail-Gagner-Hemsky
Paajarvi-ROR/Hanzal/etc.-Hartikainen
Eager-Belanger/Horcoff-Jones

We need someone that's strong on draws who can also give us top end defense and secondary offense. I'm warming up more and more to the idea of offersheeting ROR TBH. Yes we could win the draft lottery, however at what point will said player be as valuable to us as ROR would be? Especially if Gagner is in the teams future plans? If Gagner isn't then I wouldn't make the OS because it sounds like a bunch of solid centers are available this year. So let me ask you and others browsing this topic this, would you rather keep Gagner and Hemsky, offersheet ROR and make a play for JM Liles from TO or better yet Gardiner if for some reason they want to move him to expedite the rebuild. Or would you rather stand pat and see what the draft holds before making any decisions on Gagner or Hemsky? Also what is the max salary and term that you offer Gagner if he's looking for his big payday because of his productive season to this point? Same for Hemsky when his contract runs out.

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