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02-25-2013, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fuhr was a finalist for two reasons; Gretzky's injury and the fact that he won so many games. His W total is also why he got the Vezina. Without Gretzky, Fuhr is neither a Hart finalist nor a Vezina winner.

Yzerman was only two points behind Messier for the Alternate Reality Art Ross, and would have been the reigning Hart trophy winner.

Think about the way people perceive Crosby. If Crosby had not been injured, and had completed full seasons but his PPG dropped to levels around 100-105 points, would he be the "consensus" best player the way he is now?

Lemieux scored 45 points in 26 games. I don't know the exact number, but I know he played time with Recchi; I have to believe that Recchi could lose six points (and John Cullen three points) from Lemieux's absence. That bumps Yzerman up to fourth in coring, behind only Hull, Oates, and Sakic. Yzerman had three more goals than Sakic, who had one more point.

It depends largely on how the Gretzky voters would vote in that situation. One also wonders if Oates steals votes from Hull at that point, if they are the top two instead of 2 and 3. IMHO Oates was more deserving and the better player.

In 1992-93, I think if Lemieux were gone the other great offensive forwards (Yzerman, LaFontaine, Oates, Selanne, Turgeon) all get in on the action, and I'm not certain Gilmour would have received the same number of Hart votes as he did. I think it becomes a feeding frenzy, and as Yzerman is near the top he would have a good chance at coming out on top; better than what he had with Lemieux healthy.
What am I even reading....

So you're basically saying that:
-Fuhr is trash without Gretzky, hall of fame goalie is not even close to touching a vezina without Gretzky....

-Messier who wins an art ross, is known as the #1 of the Oilers (since y'know, no shadow of Gretzky to hide behind since Gretzky doesn't exist), and the one to lead the Oilers to the cup would lose to Yzerman based on reputation points? By that standard Crosby should have beaten Henrik Sedin for the hart a little while ago, but he didn't. We're also assuming that Bourque didn't have a career year (and this is Raymond Bourque, top 5 defenseman all time).

-We assume that the absence of Lemieux and the dropping in standings of Recchi magically propels Yzerman above three completely unrelated players, including an 86 goal Brett Hull.... . Also you're saying that Yzerman wins an undeserved Hart on the basis that Hull and Oates split votes (but... they would be splitting 1st and 2nd place votes, and the third place (lets assume Sakic doesn't exist for now) votes would go to Yzerman....).

-In 93, we're giving the Hart to yzerman on blind luck and reputation again...

So basically what you're saying is that if Yzerman gets a crapton of lucky breaks and "reputation wins" then he wins 5 total hart trophies. Also we're saying that competing voters will somehow degrade hart voting for each player in a duo (Hull and Oates), even though such things as 1st and 2nd place votes exist....

Where is the Hart reputation win coming from anyways? Crosby has only one Hart, and he has lost to the likes of Henrik Sedin.... even though everybody fawns over him as the best player. Gretzky and Mario both dominated in terms of points every year they won the Hart.

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