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02-27-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Richard beat out Gordie Howe a few times.
Until Howe turned 25, aside from what are arguably Richard's two best seasons - which happened to nicely coincide with down years from Howe. And in 55-56, Howe still outscored Richard handily.

Jagr had a really nice bounceback year in 2005-06, but Richard never had dead years like Jagr's time in Washington. Richard also never lost out a 1st team to a guy like Teemu Selanne as Jagr did
Jagr missed 20 games that season and still scored 95 points. Selanne had a full healthy year and finished second with 109. It's understandable why someone would vote Selanne (there are only two 100-point scorers, and Selanne is one of them!) but Jagr was clearly the better player.

and yes, Richard certainly faced competition like that in Bernard Geoffrion and Andy Bathgate.
Speaking of Geoffrion... what puts Richard above Geoffrion in 75 other than the fact he lost the scoring title due to a suspension? If you go ahead with GPG and PPG, then you have to acknowledge that Geoffrion was better the prior year, and both Howe and Geoffrion were better the following year. It's an interesting quandary for Richard fans, isn't it?

Meh, Jagr tied for the scoring lead in 1994-95 with fewer PPG than Lindros
And Mario Lemieux had a higher PPG than Gretzky in 1993-94, but only played 22 games.

, and everyone knows he was gifted the 2000-01 title by Lemieux's return. I don't find those seasons any more impressive than some of Richard's second place points finishes while being a superior goal scorer (and he has 5 of them).
So what's your opinion on Messier vs. Yzerman in 1989-90? Yzerman had 62 goals and 127 points, Messier had 45 goals and 129 points.

So it comes down to whether you prefer Jagr's 3 year regular season peak (1997-98 to 1999-2000), where he did hit a level Richard never did (at least in the regular season), or if you prefer Richard's greater consistency as an elite player and superior playoff record. I take Richard's record without a second thought.
"so basically, to determine the better player, you have to decide between the guy who had the much higher play level at his peak and the guy who was surrounded by stars who surpassed at all points of his career."

Richard is legendary for his pimping of French culture in Quebec. But he wasn't a better player than Jagr.

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