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03-15-2013, 06:18 PM
  #808
Richter Scale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcman View Post
This threads gonna be a **** show when the pro Torts/Sather crew shows up
Absolutely not pro-Sather. But, Torts defender, checking in to turn this thread into a **** show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Fire Torts now! This offense is a disgrace.
What would you like him to do? Gabby had a breakaway and a penalty shot which could have completely changed the game early on, and chokes on both (I'm counting the breakaway cuz it was a weak call and Gabby still had a good chance that he failed on). Nash and Richards also had amazing opportunities that they both squandered. Not to mention that when the Rangers were actually playing, they had decent stretches of dominating the play in the Jets' end. They ended the game with 29 shots on net. Other than a full 60 minute effort (which they didn't give last night), what else do you want? This is not a coaching or system problem. This is a problem of the team not showing up for full games, and certain players pulling complete disappearing acts this season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
One great regular season and a CF berth doesnt make up for what's going on three average/underachieving regualr seasons.

Considering the talent he was given this season -- lockout or no lockout -- if the Rangers dont make the playoffs or get bounced in the 1st round as a lower seed, it's time for him to go.
I'm pretty sure I said this to you in another thread, but you just continue ignoring the circumstances surrounding his seasons here as a coach. In what you're counting as his "first season" with the Rangers, he came in mid-season with a team that was doing terribly. Did you really expect him to be able to teach his system, get used to the players and personnel, and ultimately turn that year around? Yet, you still keep counting this half-season as his first full year. Since then the team has continued its upward trend under him.

In his first two full seasons are you really going to tell me that he didn't get pretty much as much as you could expect any other coach to from those teams? They were in the process of a mini-rebuild, developing young talent, didn't have a legit 1C, didn't have the d-corps they do now, and had the likes of Olli Jokinen, a declining Chris Drury, and Wade Redden on the team. Are you ****ing serious with this ****? The man is not a miracle worker. You admit not having watched any games this year; I'm not convinced you really watched the team or followed them in Torts' first two full years here based on what it seems like you expected him to produce from what he had to work with.

Torts taught his system and they slowly developed and built a team around a defense first mindset and guess what? For the first time in over a decade, they actually have decent success. But yea, you're right, let's just blow all that up and start over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcman View Post
I'm convinced that the people who religiously defend Torts don't actually watch the games at all.
Funny, cuz I'm convinced that the emotionally unstable zealots who call for his head after each loss either don't understand the game of hockey, never played the sport, don't remember the Rangers teams between '98 and '08, or weren't old enough to live through those dark years. I'm not saying I love everything Torts does; but it is 100 % clear to me - and I imagine many of his defenders - that the focus the team has had lately on playing defense, two-way play, and building a core of defensively responsible players has improved the overall play of this team. During the decade+ of dark years this team did not once have a solid defense or defensive minded system - it was an afterthought and other teams just bulldozed them. Absolutely pathetic hockey. I do not want to go back to that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Brad View Post
I don't understand how people defend Torts. His ****** system completely takes all great offensive chances away from the team. It's horrid.
Run and gun styles and amazing highlight reel goals are fun to watch, I admit. They can even make the team look dominant in some games where everything clicks and they blowout the other team. But on the whole, they don't ****ing win championships. Just look at Tampa Bay this year. The Penguins and Flyers in the playoffs last year. I really don't get why this is hard for people to understand. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Name me more than one or two teams that didn't play a defensively responsible system that has won the cup in the past 12 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
Enough of him and his so called "system" already. Defense first? We suck at defense. No one clears the crease. Hank is left out to dry on breakaways and crazy odd-man rushes. The offense is on a whole nother level of suck.
First thing I'll say is of course our defense sucks when we play a bad game; when teams have an off night or play a bad game, defensive breakdowns will inevitably be a part of the story. The last two games have been those types of games (not really making an excuse - because these two games were awful defensively - but let's not forget we're missing arguably our #1 defensive defenseman).

When everyone on this team is playing at the level they can play at, this team's overall defense is one of the best in the league. That said, I'll sort of agree with you so far this season... but I don't see how you can blame Torts. The issue is that virtually none of the guys on their back end has been playing to their ability this year. Girardi? He has made costly, stupid mistake after mistake all year long. MDZ? Definitely not doing so well after his solid start (though I don't think he's been as bad as others make him out to be). Even McD has had quite a few more mediocre to bad games than I would have expected him to. The only two d-men that I think have met or exceeded expectations this year are Staal and Stralman and one of those guys is out right now.

Don't even get me started on offense... Richards and Gabby playing like dog poo, two 4th lines? What do you expect? That basically leaves one line to produce the points. That line doesn't produce, and we lose? Gasp! I'm shocked! But what does this have to do with Torts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
I just tire of watching a slow, boring Rangers team.
Yet, when they win... where are these types of comments? Already made this point... but would you be happy watching a team that plays like the Lightning? Amazing offensive skill, but not a semblance of a defense, so they are one of the worst teams in the east. The Rangers have tried the no-defense thing already; it doesn't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd99 View Post
He's called out his "top players" more than a handful of times this year. And his benchings are not equal. Miller turns the puck over almost every shift but Torts likes him so he plays. Krieder was sent down, Milelr should be too he's not ready.
Yes, he called out the top players -- they deserved to be called out. I've said this elsewhere, but I guess I'll say it again; Torts may not be polite or a ray of sunshine, but its not like he's an idiot with the media (despite the act he puts out there and the story he sells). Did you notice how he didn't actually single anyone in particular out? He takes a different approach to motivating players - its actually pretty similar in some respects to things Keenan did while he was here. Scratch Boyle. Guy comes back and plays some of his best games of the season (too bad it hasn't stuck). He went out of his way to call out Hagelin earlier in the season (not even in a game where he did anything particularly poorly or wrong; just wasn't playing to the level he could) -- and Hagelin comes back and strings together a solid stretch of games (absolutely all props to Hagelin, but it isn't like Torts was throwing darts at a dartboard blindfolded). People act like when he throws his hissy fits in front of the media that he's just a dolt who is flailing around mindlessly. Yes, sometimes he seems to let his emotions get to him and says things that aren't really helpful (Winter Classic last year, Brooks outburst, etc -- but if you notice, many of those outbursts that I'd put in this category actually don't have to do with the team he coaches). A lot of the time if you actually listen to what he says - particularly about the team or specific players - it is pretty measured and purposeful, even if it is sometimes abrasive.

As for Kreider vs. Miller. Kreider wasn't ready for top 6 minutes. He just wasn't playing at that level. Miller isn't either, but who do you replace him with? Miller vs. Kreider, and Miller gets picked because while he has made dumbass mistakes and not produced as much as any of us would like, he was much more engaged in the play than Kreider was the majority of the time before Kreider got sent down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Halpern - 0. Boyle - 1. Miller - 2. Powe - 0. Bickel - 0. Pyatt - 4. Asham - 1. That's a serious issue. BUT IT'S WHAT TORTS WANTS. This team is a "jam" fest when it should be playing a more wide open system.

The entire bottom 6 is a black hole. It's a disgrace. It's why I was clamoring for a real 3C before the season started.
Agreed, it is an issue. But you really think Torts wouldn't want to upgrade any one of those guys if he could? Please tell me one of two things:

1. Who within the organization do you replace any of those guys with that is an improvement (ignoring Bickel - I agree with you there, and don't understand Torts' love for him)?

2. If you want to go outside of the organization, tell me who you would trade for (realistic please), sign, etc that improves the bottom six, doesn't become a reliability defensively, and fits under the remaining cap space?

Sather has at least 2 pretty ****** contracts that he has brought here in Nash and Richards (I love Nash, but to say he isn't making too much money is a bit ridiculous; it was a contract that Columbus offered him in order to keep him there -- they had the space and didn't have the leverage - I mean, it's Columbus - so they had to inflate the $$). Those two contracts (and the Hamrlik pick up -- I know we can get out if we want and his contract is up at the end of the year, but $3.5 mil per year, really?) limit the cap space you have left to actually do much with that bottom 6.

But how is this on Torts? He probably has some say or input in who we acquire or who Sather expresses an interest in, but Sather ultimately is the bottom line on putting the personnel together and is the one who constructed this team. I don't buy that Torts wouldn't want to upgrade the bottom 6 if the right deal/player came along. I mean, you said it right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Torts calls out the top guys, and they don't respond. The way the team is constructed right now they're not going to win unless Nash, Gaborik, Richards, Stepan, Callahan, and Hagelin are on fire. Look at the goal totals. The Rangers have scored 65 goals this season. 44 of those goals are from those 6 players.


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I constantly see people saying **** like "I've yet to see Torts outcoach another coach in a game this year."

Yea? Please explain to me what you think that looks like. What does he have to do to 'outcoach' another coach? Cuz if he doesn't change the lines then the response is "OMG HE DOESN'T ADAPT. MAN IS STUBBORN." But if he does, then it is "OMG HE'S ****IN WITH THE LINES TOO MUCH WHAT ABOUT TEAM CHEMISTRY." The reality is that he does a decent job with matchups. When they're on the road, of course it is going to be harder to get the matchups you want - you have the last change (I actually think he does a pretty good job at this though as well; he clearly seems to tell guys who he wants them matched up against and they know when to change if possible after a faceoff).

What would you like him to do to 'outcoach' in-game? Do you want him to go jump on the ice and punch one of the opposing players in the face as they're about to get a breakaway? He can't play the game for his players. If they play ******, no matter how well he coaches or how good his system is, they will lose. All of this not to mention you have no clue what he is saying or telling the players to do differently or otherwise during the game...

--

This leads to another point -- when people complain about his constant line juggling. I'm not defending the practice in general, but the example from the other night of putting Haley on the top 2 lines... I don't get the *****ing there. Haley showed up to play; the players he replaced didn't. And were you not watching the game? He had one of the best chances to score all night... Bad example, stop *****ing about that move.

A lot of his line juggling has to do with who is playing well on any given night (I'm fairly certain he even says this in one of the Behind the Benches). He wants those players out there, so he finds a way to get them out there. I'll agree that in general I think this approach doesn't take into account linemate chemistry as much as it should -- but it isn't always a bad thing (a la the Haley bump up, or even as a motivational tool). If a player has a competitive bone in their body, being demoted from the 1st line to the 3rd line (Gabby) should **** them off and light a fire under their ass to play better. Unfortunately, so far this hasn't been the case -- and honestly I think that says more about Gabby than about Torts. And while I'd like to believe the baseless speculation that he is playing so poorly because he is injured, I just don't buy it at this point.

--

Last point I'll make is that though I'm defending Torts overall, I don't like every decision he makes - but who is perfect? Yes, I blame him at least partially for a bad powerplay. And yes, despite the point I made about Haley and Gabby, I generally think the constant line juggling from game to game doesn't really help. But overall I think the guy has done a fine job.

While he may deserve some of the blame for a mediocre start, you can't lay it all at his feet. If you've watched any of the games this year, you know that when this team shows up to play a full 60 minutes, they can hang with any team in the league (and yes, this is while playing Torts' system). They just haven't done that on a consistent basis (what do you expect with 6-7 new roster players, no training camp, lockout shortened season?). And yea, you can say Torts needs to motivate them (and he does need to find a way to do this)... but they are NHL players and adults - extremely competitive individuals who are living the dream - if they can't motivate themselves to show up and play each night, then I can't look to a coach (who has slowly overseen improvement in the team, brought them to the ECF last year and almost won a Jack Adams) and **** on him for some pretty lackluster individual and team performances from a team that should be doing a lot better than it is.


Last edited by Richter Scale: 03-15-2013 at 06:32 PM.
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