View Single Post
03-17-2013, 03:40 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,469
vCash: 500
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So you're saying that that 10-15 points is on top of an average defensive forward, or the worst defensive forward in the league?

How about this:

1993-94 Fedorov against Gretzky? How much is Fedorov's defense worth, and how much is Gretzky's defense worth? You are clearly valuing offense more than the PHWA does, or at least did in 1993-94.

In 1999-00, Sakic scored 81 points to Yzerman's 79, despite Sakic missing 22 games and Yzerman missing only 4. Both were top-ten scorers and PPG+. Yzerman won the Selke and was the first-team center, while Mike Modano (77GP, 38 goals, 81 points) went to the second-team. Jeremy Roenick (75GP, 78 points) was the only other center to receive any first-place votes (3), and all three of the others beat him based on their first-place votes alone. With all of them so close together, Yzerman seems the obvious choice as the Selke winner. But with Sakic having missed so many games, he's effectively scoring at a pace 30 points higher. He'd basically have to have gone from a 1.35 PPG player to a 0.59 PPG player (or less) for your "point value" to be accurate. And it's not as if he gets marked down much for being unproven; he has scored nearly 120 in the past, over 100 many times, and he tied Modano for first among centers in points.

Yet Yzerman, the Selke-winning defensive forward version, is the player who is named to the first-team.
Yzerman was named to the first team because Sakic missed 22 games, had sakic played the full season he would have ran away with it.

Does Yzerman's defensive value in 2000 make him better than Jagr and Bure, come one keep overrating the defensive impact of detriot players and then claim the defense of gilmour, modano, brind amour and francis is overrated, like you dont have a bias towards detriot players, lol. Was Yzerman better than Bure and Jagr in 2000?

Ovechkin in 2008 outscored datsyuk by only 15 points and this forum and the hockey media in general unanimously considered him the better player that year. You can make any BS excuse like datsyuk's teammates prevented him from garnering hart votes, or any other made up nostalgia. In 2008 and 2009 Ovy and Malkin were seen as the best, not datsyuk.

Like why dont you show some advanced defennsive statistics of Fedorov and compare that to the defensive impact an actual shutdown defenseman brings to the table? Yeah then that will bury your argument of fed's defense being so crucial that it makes up for even more than 15 points.

2003 wasnt too long ago. Nobody was saying Fedorov had a better year than Thornton and Naslund, no matter how much nostalgia you want to bring up. In 1992, Nobody was saying Fedorov was better than Messier. In 1995 and 1996, nobody was saying Fedorov was the 2nd best player in the league, he considered borderline top 5. Your own made up revionism of how much impact his defense makes wont cut it. I remember 2003 like it was yesterday, noboody was saying fedorov was the 2nd best player after forsberg.

If Fedorov's defense has so much value, why dont you go ahead and rank him next to Sakic on the all time lists?

Last edited by ushvinder: 03-17-2013 at 03:50 PM.
ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote