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03-20-2013, 02:18 PM
  #185
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Gretzky - 6,1 185

Modano - 6,3 210
Modano was often listed at 6'2" and 180-190 or so in the mid 90s. He was 175 in his draft year. He was first clocked with a 90+ shot in the early 90s, when he was scoring 50 goals. Maybe he put on some muscle, but that doesn't negate my point.

Yzerman - 5,11 185

Quote:
Fedorov - 6,2 206
Like Modano, Fedorov was also listed at 185-195 often during the 90s. I wonder if it's that the guys put on weight/muscle or if they are simply listed as bigger (how tall IS Daniel Briere?).

For starters, Modano is not the same size as Gretzky, Modano is much much bigger and for that matter so is Fedorov. So, whatever you're pushing, you have your numbers wrong again. Not the first time I have caught you fudging facts/stats while making a point in Fedorov's favor.
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Ah yes. The listed height/weight that shows up differently in three different places. But it's ME that's fudging it.

And please, tell me what stats/facts I am fudging with regards to Fedorov. As opposed to simply worshipping "should have been 10-time Selke winner" Steve Kasper.

Quote:
It is VERY debatable who had the better/faster slapper Yzerman or Gretzky. Both had very good slappers, probably about equal. And not much worse than Fedorov's, not sure why you are saying this.
Gretzky's was most definitely weaker than Yzerman's. Less accurate, I don't think so. Less utilized? Most definitely. Yzerman scored 100-200 (maybe more) on slappers from 40+ feet that just plain beat the goalie with no screen. Gretzky, in the same situation (at range, no screen) almost always used his wrister. Mainly because Gretzky's wrister was so superior to his slapper; I'd probably place him even with Yzerman for power on the wrister and ahead on accuracy; I think Yzerman would have scored a significantly higher number of goals and points if he had had a Coffey and/or Kurri to draw some of the defensive attention away. I'm not saying Yzerman was better than Gretzky; just that I think the goal gap in their respective primes is greater than the actual goal scoring ability gap, specifically. Giving Yzerman a "Stamkos/St.Louis" situation would have been ideal for his goal scoring; unfortunately the Wings didn't go out and get a skilled playmaker (Mats Naslund, maybe?) to play on Yzerman's wing. Or, alternatively, a LEGIT goal scorer. I mean... Ciccarelli was the first real attempt, and he wasn't that good. Sheppard clicked after he was actually put with Yzerman, but that was at the end of Yzerman's prime and he was shipped out soon afterwards anyway.

Quote:
And so damn what, that Fedorov had a faster slapper? Having that harder slapper sure didn't translate into a damn thing because he is no where close to having the offense of Wayne or Yzerman. Gretzky just about TRIPLED the amount of points that St Sergei had and Yzerman almost doubled him.
I didn't claim it made him a better scorer. Having a harder and/or better shot isn't the same thing as being an incredible scorer. Note: overall shot should not be judged by points, although raw passing ability (when separated from playmaking skill) and wrist shot specifically are almost entirely the same skill.

Quote:
Fedorov isn't even on those two players offensive stratospheres and even Modano has more points/goals.

So, what did having that 100 MPH slapper do for Fedorov in comparison to these other players you mentioned? Not much!
Power is not everything. I never claimed it was. Yzerman used his slapshot far more often than Fedorov did even when they played together, and probably scored more goals that way as a percentage of slapshots taken. I'd bet Fedorov made more forwards and defensemen sore, though. Maybe even broke a goalie or two's fingers if it hit the glove just right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Except for the fact that the Selke usually implies a sacrifice on the offensive side in order to be recognized for an "acceptable amount of defense", if you prefer. In recent history the Red Wings have produce 3 of the poster boys for bucking this trend more than others, in Yzerman, Fedorov, and Datsyuk, and they deserve all the credit they get from it, imo, based in no small part on the Cup rings they have collected between them as a result as the offensive AND defensive leaders of their respective squads.
IMO, and I am by no means the only one with this opinion, Zetterberg deserves at least as much credit as the other three for sacrificing his own offense for defense. I am still stunned he didn't win the Selke in any of 2008-2011; he should have won the first three and he was top-ten in scoring in the fourth after two years of not being top ten.

Quote:
Call it fluff if you wish, but guys like Messier and Modano never even ended up with a single one for all their perceived defensive prowess, despite having had longer careers/primes than most players from the era by comparison. It doesn't have to mean much to you, as long as you recognize that it does have significant value - at least enough to bother selecting candidates, collecting ballots, and awarding a trophy every year, in any event.

And when you're widely recognized as making more sacrifices to your offensive numbers in the name of team defense than the next guys, and you still blow your teammates out of the water in point scoring, the value "doubles". Look at the recognition Gilmour gets for '92/93. Rod the Bod didn't quite technically do that in '05/06 (1 less point than Whitney), but the combination of defense and offense provided to that 'Canes team, at age 36 no less, was also impressive. Too bad it wasn't part of a similarly successful team formula.
Gilmour's recognition is more of the "offensive forward with a pretty good defensive game" that has people disenchant with the trophy. He generally received recognition as a pretty good two-way forward, then had an explosion offensively due to power play success (his even strength numbers were pretty similar to other years, despite the nature of the season with regard to high scorers) and he gets the Selke over guys like Poulin (2nd), Otto (3rd), Fedorov (4th, most 1st votes the previous year), and Carbonneau (reigning winner, played 61 games). Gilmour second and Graves 5th the next year I attribute again to offensive peak; they were both good defensively, but there's no way Gilmour should have beaten Skrudland and Carbo, nor Graves been as high as he was.

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