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03-26-2013, 10:36 PM
  #556
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Look you cant sit here and whine about how detriot ruined fedorov's offensive numbers and act like he had the offense of jagr/crosby/lindros hidden in his body but bowman wouldnt let him unleash it. I'm of the opinion that his offense is nowhere near thiers and is massively overrated in general by red wing marks like you and had he played his career on a weaker team his legacy would take a massive nosedive. You wont change my opinion, no point in offering a rebuttal that will make more excuses. In 1994 Fedorov produced a GVT of 30, there are many players throughout history who have a higher peak than that. You are too clueless to understand that the defensive aspect of the game for a forward has nowhere near the value of that which comes from actual defenseman, thats why you overrate his potential. You want to make it seem like offensive and defensive contributions from forwards are given the same weight, when they clearly aren't. A forward will never have the defensive gvt of a bourque-lidstrom-pronger because they dont make the same overall impact in the defensive zone, you will never get it, so theres no point in discussing further.

By the way, where is Fedorov in your all time ranks. Which post 1980 players do you even have ranked above him?
It has also been explained and demonstrated that Fedorov's offensive numbers were surpressed by myriad factors that contributed to supremely successful teams. Whether you choose to call that "ruining", or not, is entirely up to yourself.

But yeah, you may not want to discuss it any further, as you'll likely expose your lack of understanding even further in the process. Like you even said, how does it make sense to have a GVT weigh-off between forwards and defense? It doesn't. But what are the GVTs, I wonder, of all these players in the seasons we're discussing? The idea isn't to evaluate how good Fedorov would be defensively as a defenseman, or how Coffey would be defensively as a forward, it's to evaluate the choice between Fedorov and Modano, Gilmour, Yzerman, Forsberg, Sakic, or whoever else you've brought into this tangent at this point who at least played the same position.

Ultimately, there are players who develop reputations for being obstacles to the other teams' best scorers. Sometimes that manifests in Selke votes/wins, sometimes it manifests in record low team GA/game, or some other statistical category, sometimes it manifests itself in championships, and sometimes it just has to be witnessed. During the '90s, the offensive defenseman was a major component of successful offenses. I don't think even you would argue that. And guess what, defensemen don't cover defensemen on the ice. Regardless, defensemen have to be covered, and there were those who did a better job of shaking that coverage. All of Fedorov, Yzerman, Forsberg, (I'll give you Sakic if it makes you feel better), Gilmour, and Lehtinen made apparently made more of an impact defensively than Modano (or, to use my previous wording, maintained that coverage "better"), for example, unless you finally produce something substantial to support your seemingly minority opinion in claiming that Modano was their equal - or in some cases better - defensively when it comes to the defensive responsibilities of a forward. Oh, and that it's "blasphemous" to believe otherwise... lol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Gilmour carried a mediocre maple leafs team on his back during those years, you want to sit here and read paper stats and make it seem like had so much help. Those were the best years of clarke and andreychuk's career. Gilmour boosted them and he would have easily won the hart if he was playing with luxury like fedorov always did. Tell me Eva, if 1994 were not the best years of the careers of Clarke and Andreychuk, than what years were. Gilmour gave those two thier most productive seasons.
Haha, yeah, if only Gilmour wasn't stuck with a guy who started his NHL career at 19 with seasons of 34 and 37 goals on one side (who was limited by injury and missing a "legit" set-up man for a while), and a guy who had 402 goals in 846 games in Buffalo before coming to Toronto on the other side... imagine the possibilities. Fedorov should count his lucky stars.

Just try to support your opinion with more than just your opinion. I think that's all anyone is asking at this point.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 03-26-2013 at 10:52 PM.
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