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04-01-2013, 12:34 AM
  #637
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sakic missed more games and got significantly more selke votes, again why are you afraid to show his actual defensive impact. Based on defensive gvt is defense that year was nothing special, I doubt detriot goals against suffered dramtically in the games feds missed. If we are saying who had the better season, then why the hell are you brining up his pace? This is one of Fedorov's worst seasons and here you are claiming he was as good as pavel bure that year and a top 3-5 forward in the whole league. He had loads of help that year, a massive chunk of his points came with lidstrom and powerplay time with yzerman/shanahan. In 2002 he spent the whole season with shanahan and got outscored. You love overrating his credentials.

Detriot's goals against in 1997: 197
Goals against in 1998 without fedorov: 196, still one of the best defensive teams in the league. LOL yeah he made such a big defensive impact individually, hes a rod langway caliber of a defensive impact player for sure.
1996-97 average league GPG: 5.8
1997-98 average league GPG: 5.3

1997-98 is recognized as the start of the DPE. Detroit stayed the same (basically) in GA, when the league average over 82 games dropped by 21 goals per team. And Detroit ALSO lost Konstantinov that summer, recognized as the league's top defensive defenseman at the time. And they traded Vernon, keeping Hodson as backup. All of those things should have sent the Wings' GA upwards, but they didn't - unless you factor in the whole league's average GPG dropping. Detroit was #2 in GA (behind New Jersey's 182) in 1997, with Dallas at 198 right behind them. The next season, they were #7, behind NJ (166), Dallas (167), Buffalo (187), Pittsburgh (188), and Philadelphia (193) with Chicago (199) close behind. They went from sixth offensively (253 goals) behind Pittsburgh (285), Colorado (277), Philadelphia (274), NY Rangers (258), Vancouver (257) and just ahead of Edmonton (252), Dallas (252), and Montreal (249). They were second the next season, behind only St. Louis (256), despite dropping a mere 3 goals.

Quote:
In 2000 the red wings were a middle of the pack team in terms of goals against with a mediocre 210, compared to st. louis who only allowed 165 goals. His defense that year doesnt make up for 20 invisible points.

Detriot's goals against in 2003 with fedorov: 203
In 2004 when feds leaves: 189
Major Loss: Fedorov.
Major Additions: Hatcher, Hasek, Lang (deadline)
Major Improvements: Fischer, Zetterberg, Datsyuk

Focused on defense more: Lidstrom

Quote:
In 2000 pavol demitra only played 3 more games and finished 6th in selke voting
He had better than PPG, and he broke that "magical" 70 game barrier which to many means he played a full season. He was also a solid defensive player in his prime.

Quote:
Oates finished 4th with four first place votes and many 2nd place votes. Owen Nolan and Mark Recci racked up a ton of hart votes. Owen Nolan was 5th in hart voting. Jagr, Bure and Healthy Sakic were the best forwards that year. Then after them were recci, nolan, kariya, selanne, modano, yzerman. Oates and demitra would have remained well ahead of feds in selke voting. Go on keep overrating the guy.
In 2000 Yzerman won the Selke, and was the 1st-team All-Star. It's a noticeable trend that when multiple players on the same team are contending for a single award (Hart, Selke, Norris, AS, etc.) it is rare to see two teammates high in voting regardless of performance. If one player is clearly more deserving than any of his teammates, it often will result in teammates being left off the ballot entirely - even in favor of lesser players from other teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, he never did get the same kind of consideration as he did from that season. Actually he's second best season he finished 1st in Selke voting and had 68 Hart votes. Not being in the top-4 in voting. So it seems to me that he never managed to pull of the same caliber season but once. Which is arguably the only season he has better than any of Selanne's seasons.
Fedorov was better than Selanne every season from 93-94 to 95-96, just on a comparison of PPG. Then consider that Fedorov was 1st/4th/1st in Selke voting those years and Fedorov has nt one year, but a three year span where he was FAR, FAR better than Selanne.

Quote:
Selanne Got more points cause he had better PPG and he played in more games. Which both are pretty significant deals when judging any forwards worth in one season.
Again, we're not judging "how much total value did this player have in this season" we're judging "when on the ice, who was the better player?" That's a significantly different question.

And including a forward's defensive ability in an overall estimation of how good they are is not unfair. Using simple PPG would place players like Kadri as better than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Toews this season. And while Kadri has had a strong season, it doesn't even account for the variance by conference of offense.

Quote:
I never compared Fedorov 99 to 93. I just derailed in my post a bit. This is about that one single year.

Yeah, i am now at least trying to look at this more deeply. But i get how it can be annoying since Selanne has his injuries and very often when someone want's to bring him down those years are looked without any context.
Fedorov post-lockout was fighting injuries since day one. He missed 13 of the first 18 games post-lockout (and then was traded to Columbus) and still managed to be a solid defensive contributor and 50-point (pace) player in a reduced role.

Again, with Selanne, it's always "but he was injured in those handful of years where he wasn't as good." Everyone's injured. It happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Really hope you're kidding with this statement.
Who did Fedorov play ON A LINE WITH in the NHL, who was better IN THE NHL than Zhamnov? Or Tkachuk? Or Kariya? Or McDonald? Or Ryan?

Umm... uhhhh...

Yeah.

Quote:
What are you talking about? All I've said was that Selanne dealt with several injuries in San Jose and especially in Col. You jst chalked it up as seasons that Selanne didn't have Kariya. It's a little more complicated than that. And again Fedorov played with rediculous talent in 02 and only have 68 points.
Fedorov played through plenty of injuries. In the 1996 playoffs he was playing with a broken rib and played multiple games on it, and then had another rib broken on a check by Aaron Miller. He ended up coming back after the Wings doctor fixed him up so he could breathe without immense pain. And dominated the next couple of games.

Quote:
Maybe my math is wrong but if a player has a 1.37 PPG and plays ONE game it's not easy to assume he'd get TWO points. Here's another case of you changing history. Selanne had the same PPG while having more goals and more points and you say Fedorov was "clearly" better on offense.
It only works out to one point (rounded down) as a projection if you use total points. When making projections, it's better to separate goals and assists. In Fedorov's particular instance, he had exactly one goal for every two games, so that rounded up. And he had more assists than goals, so that rounded up. But in total, it didn't work out to two points per game on the average; just 1.37 points. And I DID address this in the original post; the initial projection was made with separate GPG and APG (resulting in two points) and then I noted that projecting points alone only yields a single-point increase from 107 to 108. Selanne, similarly, sees a one-point drop from PPG or a two-point drop from GPG+APG if projected to Fedorov's games.

Furthermore, my main point was simply that Fedorov has the better PPG. That is, was, and will be true for the 1995-96 season regardless of whether you choose to agree with me on anything else. That is a statistical fact. And it was the third year in a row Fedorov had a better PPG.

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