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04-02-2013, 04:09 PM
  #668
King Forsberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You really don't want to bring up '02. You know, when Selanne played a full season and only got 54 points. Played another full season the next year and only got 64 points. And you're pointing to Fedorov's 68 points as a "weakness"? Those 68 points, second on the team to Shanahan's 75, contributed to a 51 win, 116 point season in the standings for the Wings. To put it in further perspective, Fedorov was the highest scoring centre on the 2nd highest scoring team in the league that year. That's a successful team in the DPE for you.
im sure you'll fail to even mention that Selanne played hurt because that would hurt your argument. But th reason I mention 2002 is Because someone bought up 2004 with Selanne. Fedorov played with rediculous amounts of talents and still only had 68 points. I'm not site why you're bringing up team accomplishments. There's a big difference between who's a better player and what you're arguing in this point.


Quote:
If you've read the thread, you've seen plenty so far. I sense you're waiting for one or two specific names to be dropped, and have cases already prepared.
I don't think anyone here defending Selanne has brought up line mates. This is about post lockout line mates. I don't have any arguments lined up. I just wanted a response.


Quote:
Instead of setting up a position that no one is even claiming, why don't you do your own homework to figure out how much impact these guys had on your understanding of Fedorov? You probably already suspect, as I do, that it probably won't yield anything worth the effort.
I've been told Fedorov didn't play with Lidstrom or Coffey and never played with defensemen as good as Niedermayer or Pronger. Both Fedorov and Selanne benefitted from good d men.


Quote:
And he totally gets credit for that. But imo, Selanne on the end of Kariya generated scoring plays gets credit divvied up
like Guerin on the end of Thornton generated scoring plays circa the same era, or Shanahan on the end of Janney, Yzerman, and Fedorov generated scoring plays before that.
Why does it get divvied up? Both of your examples are examples of a lesser player playing with a hall of fame offensive player. I think most would agree that Selanne is a lot better than Kariya in an all time sense and maybe even in those seasons. Both benefitted form each other, lets not make it seem like Selanne was a lesser player that was spoon fed from Kariya.


Quote:
Yeah, that's going too far, imo. Similarly, no offensive advantage you can find for Selanne in any season translates into enough value to rank him above Fedorov "overall" - essentially all the way up to the lockout.
Selanne's seasons for 97-2000 more than make up for Fedorovs defensive advantage. I don't think defense makes up 20-40 points on offense. 96 where their offense was very similar I'd say the defense makes up the small advantage Selanne had in goals. And why not bring up post lockout? Even if Fedorov was playing Selke defense, which he wasn't, he's not even close to Selanne.


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How deep are you actually willing to dig? Because you seem to be avoiding my posts which probe deeper into what fans of either guy were watching game to game back then, for example, and I see you jumping in on the easier points to attack in other posts instead, and still asking for previously provided/discussed information as well.
what? I have not dodged your posts at all. I responded to Eva because he/she responded to me. What are your points that probe deeper? I don't by your argument of multi point games or post game star awards. The latter is incredibly weak for an argument. I also don't buy your multi point game arguments. Point totals at the end of the season are a much better measure of a players offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Who did Fedorov play ON A LINE WITH in the NHL, who was better IN THE NHL than Zhamnov? Or Tkachuk? Or Kariya? Or McDonald? Or Ryan?

Umm... uhhhh...

Yeah.
that Steve Yzerman guy was pretty good. And Shanahan. Selanne has hardly played with Ryan. Ryan plays with Getzlaf and Perry.


Quote:
Fedorov played through plenty of injuries. In the 1996 playoffs he was playing with a broken rib and played multiple games on it, and then had another rib broken on a check by Aaron Miller. He ended up coming back after the Wings doctor fixed him up so he could breathe without immense pain. And dominated the next couple of games.
Your point? Selanne's injury was one that took away his biggest asset, speed. Dominating a couple of games in the playoffs isn't the same as playing a whole season injured. That season 2002, Selanne was only 14 points behind Fedorov who was playing with arguably the best team assembled.


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It only works out to one point (rounded down) as a projection if you use total points. When making projections, it's better to separate goals and assists. In Fedorov's particular instance, he had exactly one goal for every two games, so that rounded up. And he had more assists than goals, so that rounded up. But in total, it didn't work out to two points per game on the average; just 1.37 points. And I DID address this in the original post; the initial projection was made with separate GPG and APG (resulting in two points) and then I noted that projecting points alone only yields a single-point increase from 107 to 108. Selanne, similarly, sees a one-point drop from PPG or a two-point drop from GPG+APG if projected to Fedorov's games.

Furthermore, my main point was simply that Fedorov has the better PPG. That is, was, and will be true for the 1995-96 season regardless of whether you choose to agree with me on anything else. That is a statistical fact. And it was the third year in a row Fedorov had a better PPG.
You still claimed that Fedorov would have scored 2 points in 1 game based on his PPG. I'm not sure why you made such a long post on something so minuscule. Fedorov had a decimal point better ppg than Selanne. Meanwhile Selanne still had more goals and more points.

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