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04-09-2013, 08:36 AM
  #492
Hardyvan123
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Era's change, priorities required by players change and said players HAVE to be judged on what they did, when they did it, how they did it and who was capable/available to do it against.

The part in bold often comes up, sometimes even in capital letters so it's easier to read, often as the "we can't punish the oldtimers..."


The point of the matter is that when groups of players are being compared with different sets of players and dynamics the context needs to be taken into account, the "we can't punish the oldtimers " line indicates a minimization if not outright dismissal of the context.

Quote:
It's times like these that I just think it's downright unfair of me to even engage you.
?

Really?

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In a post, just the other freakin day for pete's sake, you made it quite clear that you don't even consider Fetisov or Kasatonov 70's D-men.
Their peaks and primes aren't, Fetisov was good enough to be the top Dman at the WC as early as 78 and Vasiliev and Suchy as well as other iron curtain Dmen weren't in the NHL at the time.

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I saw where you were going from a mile away and made sure you specified why they weren't 70's D-men. I set the hook or in this case the foot and you just swallowed it whole my friend.
Wow you should buy lottery tickets as I only thought of this post last night.

The point of the matter isn't that I get the specific seasons down exactly right, as it's subjective and since they didn't play in an integrated NHL we don't know how they ( the guys in Europe versus the not so deep NHL Dman pool)) would have stacked up against each other

Quote:
Savard's 4 top 5 Norris finishes came between '75-'79, Lapointe's between '72-'79.
If you don't even consider Fets and Kats 70's D-men, then how can you now say that they would have been "direct peers" to them and would/may have downgraded their reputation accordingly???

Consistent in your distinctions indeed.
Okay then it's a young Fetisov and Kastatonov there affect is more in the 80's then. Vasliiev, Suchy, ect.. are the primary guys, at points in the 70's.

You seem to be hung up on dissecting the specific example instead of the overall principle here.

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No it isn't!
We have plenty of comparables to both of these guys and NO ONE is going to confuse them with any of the following players...
Bourque
Chelios
Stevens
MacInnis
Leetch
Lidstrom
Yes and Chelios, Leetch and Lidstrom and others not mentioned are all guys who pre 80's NHLers wouldn't have to compete against to any large degree, Salming aside. Those 3 guys are part of the quality of the new talent stream right? Thus making a harder set of peers to be judged against potentially?

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And how you can even bring up Nieds is ridiculous, he gets plenty of credit, hence his #33 ranking. Within 5 spots of Savard I might add which seems pretty damned right to me.
sure the placement is right to you with the metrics you use, and say that you account for but something is off. Nieds is the top scoring Canadian Dmen of his generation and if he had the benefit of earlier guys, ie. being judged against his Canadian peers, he would come out as the top teer of that group.

But we all know who he was judged against which is a different set of players.

The top 60 Dman project is done, hopefully the treatment of players in full context has more of the context focus instead of the more historical focus in the future forwards groups but I'm not hopefull.

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