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04-09-2013, 11:55 PM
  #103
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Thanks for the explanation, and sorry for the lateness of my reply here.

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting the numbers, but wouldn't they suggest that Crosby's '11 ESGF/GA ratio and On/Off ratio were better than several of the names at the top of that list, including Lemieux and Jagr in '96?

If that's true, it wouldn't necessarily be the most accurate indicator of the best seasons, would it?
It's because Lemieux and Jagr played on separate lines.

When you have two players scoring at almost 2 PPG, and they're on separate lines, it's hard to bring up a stat like "GF On/Off" and show it in their favor ahead of another player who's scoring maybe 90-100 points while no other line on his team is producing significant offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Messier- wins in '87 w/o Gretzky?... wins in '90... wins in '92 if Hull considered U.S.
Gilmour- if Messier doesn't win in '87, then he does (second in '94)
Yzerman- wins in '89 (second in '90 & '93)
Hull- wins in '91 & '92 (but technically born in U.S.)
Recchi- likely wins in '91 if Hull considered U.S. (as Oates drops down as well w/o Hull)... wins in '00
If we're pulling out Hull, and that causes Oates to drop down significantly as well, I'm going to offer this statement: Recchi and John Cullen would both have dropped behind Yzerman if you simply remove Lemieux.

Furthermore, in 1991-92 there would be a chain effect seeing Kevin Stevens and Luc Robitaille drop behind Yzerman/Roenick, and as we pulled Hull out in 91 we can justify it for 92 as well. Which makes Messier the winner with Yzerman/Roenick tied for second. But then there's Leetch's 102 points; if you completely remove Brian Leetch, how much does it pull on Messier? Is it at least five points? And Roenick loses Chelios.

This is before the consideration that in 1990-91 and in 1991-92 Yzerman's production was down compared to his other prime years due to Bryan Murray's style of lineup, using the Wings' three best forwards - Steve Yzerman, Sergei Fedorov, and Jimmy Carson - to center three separate "first lines" with mediocre wingers, rather than put Fedorov or Carson with each other or put one with Yzerman. The Carson trade in 1993 relieved the center logjam, and allowed Yzerman to "be Yzerman" again; he went on a scoring tear from the moment Carson was traded until the end of the season. Before the trade, Yzerman had playd all 53GP, and had scored 37-36-73; which projects to 56-54-110 in 80 games (such as the previous few seasons) or 59-57-116 in 84 (as he played that season). After the Carson trade, he played all 31GP, posting 21-43-64 - clearly superior numbers. The projections? For an 80 game season, 54-111-167; for an 84 game season, 57-117-174.

If you remove Fedorov from the 1990-92 Red Wings, the team is not as good but Yzerman puts up higher numbers. Possibly similar seasons to his 89-90 season when it was Yzerman/Carson with no Fedorov, which is also extremely close in GPG and APG to his 87-88 season. It's even possible that in a two-center world, Yzerman outscores Oates in 1992-93 (the gap was only five points) and wins the Ross there as well.

That would put Yzerman with the following finishes (assuming removal of US/Euro)

1989 - 1
1990 - 2
1991 - 1
1992 - 1
1993 - 1

And finally, Hull was born in Canada, and plays for the US internationally as he was born a dual citizen and spent his childhood in Chicago (and learning to play hockey, despite the popular myth that he learned in Canada) before moving to Winnipeg when his dad became a Jet.

So ultimately, the winner in 1991 and 1992 would be either Brett Hull or Steve Yzerman, depending on whether you include Hull. As your list suggests that you do not, I would then place Yzerman as the winner. If you include Hull, Yzerman is in second place.

Yzerman would also likely be considered by many the best center to ever play the game after scoring 177-207-384 in 223 games from 87-88 through 89-90.

Quote:
In '99, he was 5 points behind Kariya, who actually played on the same line as Selanne (unlike Sakic & Forsberg).
Sakic and Forsberg played together on the PP. It's one of the reasons Hartley tried them together at ES for a bit in the early 2000s.

Losing Forsberg could have no significant effect, or huge effect on Sakic. Remember though, Hejduk, Kamensky, Deadmarsh, and Drury are all ALSO gone. Also Ozolinsh. And Krupp. Pretty much all of the significant supporting case Sakic had in Colorado, gone. Except Mike Ricci. He's still around.

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