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04-10-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Heck you could make 9 really decent teams, all playoff worthy from just Europe, and 9 more from the States.
I don't know about 9 from each. Maybe 9 from Europe and 5-6 from the States...

But we can always TEST THE HYPOTHESIS!(R)

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Expansion and the increased talent pool was different at times and the early 70's with the WHA is probably the most diluted through time.
When the North American talent pool is large enough to support perhaps 10-12 teams and there are 32 teams (NHL+WHA) the talent level will be pretty diluted.

We also have around 10 Dmen from the top 60 project "padding to their resume" during this time, both in the NHL and other places.
Like Bobby Orr?

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Except the 9 team reference is from '92 till today when the League went from 21 to 30 teams.
Many Russian's were already in the League in '89 and the Yanks, Swedes and Finns were already well established long before '89.
Petr Klima is not Jaromir Jagr. After 1989, Europeans came over at a much higher rate, and younger and much higher level players were available.

The ENTIRE KML UNIT was in the NHL in 89/90, not just the line, the entire UNIT!

So the 9 team reference you keep bringing up only really consists of the remaining Russian's and the Czech's.
Yep, guys like Jagr, Hasek, Fedorov, Bure, Mogilny, Zubov, Yashin, Zubov, Gonchar, Konstantinov, Nabokov, Straka, Kovalev, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, S.Kozlov, V.Kozlov, Bobrovsky, Cechmanek. You know, nobodies who only played a few games then got scared by the big bad Canadians before jumping back over the pond.

And you can NOT make up 9 teams with only the Czech's and 2/3's to 3/4's of the Russian's.
As I said earlier, we're going to test this.

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
As of today, about 8% of the NHL consists of Czech's (4.9%) and Russian's (3.3%).
Canada 53%
USA 23.2%
Swedes 6.9%
Other 4.3%
Finns 3.1%
Slovakia 1.4%

Last I checked, 9 teams equals 30% of the League.

Canadian's, Yanks, Swedes and Finn's make up 80% of the league or 24 teams.
Canadian's make up 16 teams on their own.
That leaves 14 teams; not far off from Hardy's estimate of 16. Before judging based on a player-by-player basis, we can estimate that 53% is Canadian (15.9 teams), 23.2% (6.96 teams) of the league is American and the rest (23.8%, or 7.14 teams) is Euro/other. So the "raw" numbers suggest closer to 7 and 7 than Hardy's 9 and 9.

In 89/90
Can 74.3%
USA 16.6%
Swed 3%
Finn 2.2%
Czch 1.5%
Russ 1.2%
Other .8%
Slov .3%[/QUOTE]

Now let's test the number of teams that existed in 89-90.
There were 74.3% Canadians (15.6 teams), 16.6% Americans (3.49 teams), and 9.1% Euro/other (1.91 teams). So with the addition of nine teams, the league has changed as follows:

Canadians: +0.3 teams
Americans: +3.47 teams
Euro/other: +5.23 teams

That's a pretty significant influence from both American and European players, just from the numbers of players. That doesn't even factor in the level of players; in the past 20 years we have been seeing more and more high-end American and European players. Of the four most dominant LWs during the 1990s, two were American. The most consistently dominant? American. Of the best RWs through the 90s, the top three were all European. Of the top ten centers, three were European and another was American. Most of the top defensemen in the late 90s were American or European.

Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I'm not sure if this is the question you alluded to or not, but if so, you're dreaming. The increased player pool from these countries doesn't come close to covering the 30% increase in teams and even if it did, the point is mostly irrelevant. Swedes were already in the NHL.

What does it matter that most of the nhlers were Canadians? They were mostly the best players in the world at the time.

The numbers here show that the increase in the talent pool isn't nearly enough to support the increase in teams. The talent is actually thinner from roster to roster today than it was in the late 80's. There simply isn't enough to cover 9 additional teams.
This is completely inaccurate. The fact that the NHL has maintained a similar amount of Canadians is not proof that the talent is now diluted. In the 70s and 80s a majority of teams weren't able to ice more than two or three lines with what we would call "NHL level skill" today. The bottom line, perhaps even bottom two, would be guys who could barely skate and played only a few minutes a game to give stars a breather and maybe pound the stuffing out of someone on the other team. Almost no 70s/80s third/fourth line goons would be capable of playing in the NHL today on skill alone. The guys on the bottom lines now are what used to be considered a "good third liner" and sometimes showed up on a second line. Guys like Dave Barr; gritty, defensive checking players who have a bit of skill to their game.

It's also interesting to note that, based on the numbers I've provided above, that the increase in American/Euro/Other is just shy of nine teams' worth of players, and the NHL has added nine teams since 1990. Certainly implies an increase in talent quality.

You keep making this claim, but it's simply not even close to being true. It's ok to have an opinion but it should be somewhat factual.

It's like saying MJ wouldn't dominate the NBA today because of the influx in talent from Argentina, Lithuania and other countries that lacked representation in the NBA.
No, it's more like saying that Mickey Mantle wouldn't be as dominant because of the addition of high-end talent from Japan and Latin America.

Gretzky was competitive with a prime Jagr
When, exactly, during Jagr's prime was Gretzky competitive with him? Do you mean 1996-97 when Gretzky outscored Jagr by two points while playing 19 more games? You realize that Gretzky still finished behind Jagr in Hart voting, and both were second-team All-Stars that season, right?

That's the only POSSIBLE season during Jagr's prime you could mean. And Jagr was clearly the far better player.

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I gave specific examples of Nieds, Zubov and the guys in the late 60's and 70's as the obvious ones. during the top 60 project Pilote and Gadsby also came up but given your analysis of Savard/Zubov it's doubt full that you are serious at looking at the differences in eras but rather have other interests at heart.

quite simply you say that you account for the differences in eras but your posts and reactions to any discussion on the more current players becoems an entire critique to knock them down.

Guys like zubov and Nieds had to contend with talent streams that earlier guys didn't and it doesn't look like it was accounted for.

Here is Nieds one more time for his career,

he is first in scoring among all Canadian defensemen over his time in the NHL, has both a Norris and a Conn Smythe.
Neither of which he truly earned; both rightfully belong to Pronger.

Looking at his competition form the top 10 in total scoring over his time in the NHL he has the 2 guys ahead of him form Europe in Nik and Sergei and in total 11 of the top 20 point getters from the D position aren't Canadians.

Yet Gadsby (without a Norris and a pretty weak playoff resume) breezes into 21st place and Vaslieiv into 25th?
Niedermayer spent his first ten years as a "good" defenseman, with one "excellent" season in 1997-98. His "prime" in the mid 2000s came on a team built with excellent defense, where he didn't need to shoulder as much of the load as a guy like Gadsby. Gadsby was a finalist several times and a first-teamer a few times as well as a second-teamer a few times. Marcel Dionne has a pretty weak playoff resume; how do you compare him to a guy like Doug Gilmour who has a decent playoff resume, but was significantly worse in the regular season?

Last edited by pdd: 06-02-2013 at 01:29 AM.
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