View Single Post
04-17-2013, 03:31 PM
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,974
vCash: 500
Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Yea, everyone makes mistakes. Gillick isn't perfect. But he also held onto core players in Utley, Howard, Rollins, Hamels. He brought in Rowand, Werth, Moyer, Feliz. He brought in the good versions Durbin and Lidge. When Gillick left, the Phillies were world champions, had arguably the best lineup in the league, a decent starting rotation anchored by the best homegrown Phillies pitcher since Roberts, a good bullpen, and a very nice farm system. All of this under a very manageable payroll.

In 2009, they were hit by the injury bug in the bullpen and Hamels had issues the entire year or else they would've won again. Gradually, things went downhill though. The payroll went up, the farm system was slowly depleted, and the Phillies kept getting older. Until we are now left with a bunch of veteran guys trying desperately to keep up with the next generation. This is poor general managing. All Amaro has done is essentially play fantasy baseball with what Gillick handed him. He got a bunch of ace pitchers, signed and traded for big names until they cut him off financially. Now we've got to deal with scrubs filling a lineup. It's nice to have the big names, but it's also nice to just grab an average guy every now and then.

And despite 102 wins, I don't think that was the best Phillies team in this era. I think they hit their peak in 2010. The lineup was still top notch and the rotation was great. Bullpen was not bad. They just ran into the worst matchup that year with the Giants and they couldn't score runs. In 2011, it was clear the lineup was on the downtrend and the incredible rotation was winning tons of low scoring games. Utley, Howard, and Rollins suffered from injuries all year. If the pitching wasn't perfect, the offense couldn't bail them out. Then in 2012, when Amaro came into the season with 3 positions filled with basically placeholders, that's when I was done with him.
As for Manuel, you may be right, switching the lineup may do nothing. However, what is sticking with the same thing again and again going to give us? Nothing. It's obvious it's not working so at least try something else. My choice would be Mayberry LF, Revere CF, and Brown RF (until D. Young). Then at least you wouldn't have to worry anymore about defense. Put Revere down in the lineup as there is way too much pressure on him right now. Just try anything. I'm so tired of hearing Charlie say he got a feeling so that's why he did something. Doing that every so often is fine, no sport is completely based on numbers. But just continually going with your gut and sticking with your guys until they crash into ball of flames is not going to work with a team that lacks the same talent as the past Phillies. You have to be creative and you've got to get involved, get mad. Charlie fills out the same lineup card, goes through the same motions with the same damn expression on his face every single game. And I can't take it anymore.
I pretty much agree, except for the bit about the farm system. The system didn't really start to produce much talent until the 08 draft. The guys Gillick won with who came from the farm system were all there from the Ed Wade years, and it was Mike Arbuckle (I think) who was running the minors at that time.

There wasn't much talent on the farm when Gillick was GM, and Gillick did trade the best player we developed in that time (Bourn) for Brad Lidge, who had one great year and then promptly declined. If the Phils didn't win in 08, that trade is probably looked at as a disaster. Even the trade for Blanton was seen as an overpay at the time iirc. Blanton was having a terrible year in Oakland and, though Adrian Cardenas seems to have washed out, he was a hot prospect at the time; probably top 2 or 3 in the Phils system. Feliz was supposed to hit too, but he ended up being a drag on the lineup. But we overlook that because he was on the WS winner.

But back to Amaro, the (first) Pence trade was awful. The Howard extension was foolish. Trading Lee to Seattle necessitated trading for Oswalt the next year, which cost us good prospects, but I'm not sure that was his idea. Seemed like more of a move to save ownership some cash. I don't count myself as a fan of his, but he did make a good team better in 2009-2011 (and you make a valid argument for the 2010 team being better than 2011. I think it's pretty close since the biggest difference was -Jayson Werth and +Cliff Lee.) The Phils could easily have won a WS in one of those years had they gotten some better breaks.

zarley zelepukin is offline