Was Jagr better than Lemieux in 1995-96?
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05-11-2013, 03:19 PM
Just a Fool
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Originally Posted by
You're right I forgot the SH stuff but the point pretty much remains the same.
People are referring to Mario as being DOMINANT at ES when it isn't actually true, not in real raw stats (ESGF/ESGA) or even adjusted for the weaker team mates of Mario.
For both Mario and feds ESGF/ESGA I removed both their PP and SH GF and GA so it's a moot point.
Not as impressive as it seems?
Give me a break, he is playing at a Selke pace against the other teams top players and he is obviously the strongest part of that Russian 5 group you are referring too.
We can go back to Feds rookie season and beyond where Feds was always one of the leaders for forwards in plus minus on his Detroit teams. It further supports that Feds wasn't riding anyone coattails in his plus/minus stats on those Wings teams.
For reference Overpass here has a study on adjusted plus minus statistics were Mario is 22 and Feds is 32 since 1967.
exactly how is Feds value being over eggarated by playing on Detroit?
No doubt you are feeling pretty good about the perfect storm comment but it really doesn't apply here does it?
Where teams splitting up their top lines, thus making Feds defensive responsibilities easier (and made to look better than they really where?)
Was Detroit playing Feds late in games on stacked lines to pump up his offensive stats?
Where exactly is this perfect storm that you are referring to?
Once again you are only looking at actual ES scoring and not everything that happened while Mario was on the ice.
Look guys are more responsible for scoring points than they are for stopping the opposition in scoring but to what degree it's uncertain.
What we do know is that Mario was on the ice for exactly 10 more ESGF than ESGA which isn't dominant period even if he on the ice for 300 goals he would be on the ice for 290 goals against.
Feds doesn't need to score 77 ES strength points to have the same value as Mario, he is after all the focal point of the defense from the center position and playing at a Selke winning rate at that point.
Heck if winning hockey was only about scoring points Mario, Jagr and Francis and company would ahve more than 2 SC right?
But it's not just about scoring goals, it's also about preventing them and other things as well.
In your world Denis Maruk is a way better player than Rick Middleton was in 81 and 82 combined right?
And if Fedorov's defensive dominance and importance was as great as you imply for those Wing teams, the Wing's would have more than just 3 Cups and the season Fedorov sat out for 3/4's of would have yielded a great variance or at least some variance from the seasons pre and post. THERE WAS NO VARIANCE AT ALL!!!
As far as Middleton vs Maruk, that is not even remotely relevant to this argument. It's a completely asinine one to be honest.
Middleton's production is a hell of a lot closer to Maruk's than Fedorov's is to Mario's.
Middleton's 1.23 PpG over those two seasons while providing a strong defensive presence to Maruk's 1.46 PpG is a long ass stretch from Mario's whopping
2.68 PpG to Fedorov's 1.37 PpG.
Like I said, ASININE!
Just show me where Fedorov's defensive play is equal to 1.31 PpG. The very ESGF/ESGA ratio's you yourself provided show, beyond a shadow of doubt, it's not even close to that!
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 05-11-2013 at
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