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05-12-2013, 08:31 PM
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Once again you are only looking at actual ES scoring and not everything that happened while Mario was on the ice.

Look guys are more responsible for scoring points than they are for stopping the opposition in scoring but to what degree it's uncertain.

What we do know is that Mario was on the ice for exactly 10 more ESGF than ESGA which isn't dominant period even if he on the ice for 300 goals he would be on the ice for 290 goals against.

Feds doesn't need to score 77 ES strength points to have the same value as Mario, he is after all the focal point of the defense from the center position and playing at a Selke winning rate at that point.

Heck if winning hockey was only about scoring points Mario, Jagr and Francis and company would ahve more than 2 SC right?

But it's not just about scoring goals, it's also about preventing them and other things as well.

In your world Denis Maruk is a way better player than Rick Middleton was in 81 and 82 combined right?
Certainly Feds deserves a lot of credit for his stellar defensive play. I would never take that away from him. However a goodly amount of credit also has to go to his teammates when looking at ES numbers. Detroit was a team playing a great two way system with a lot of great players. The Left wing lock today, is considered a more offensive system compared to some, but in the early/mid 90's was considered very very defense first compared to most.

In any case, there was a reason 3 defensemen on that team were neck in neck for 4th on the Norris voting, and why Yzerman came 3rd for the Selke, as well as Osgood coming in 2nd for the vezina. It was defensive number heaven playing with that team.

You can harp on Lemieux's even strength numbers since he was only a bit over in that regard, but the fact of the matter is, the guys on the ice with you matter when it comes to your defensive numbers. Lemieux was on the ice with the lesser forwards and offensive defensemen, which opened up a heck of a lot of room for Francis/Jagr, but also meant Mario had to do more himself(Which he did) while facing double teams and the best defensive coverage the other team could ice against him.

Nothing he was not used to. It was amazing given that his back was killing him the last 2 years he played.

Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I consider Orr the greatest player I'll ever see, but that comment is somewhat short-sighted, IMO.

Mario, like Gretzky, was not simply another "1 way player".

When either of those two were on the ice, the entire shift for both teams to a large extent revolved around their presence, period. Regardless of whether or not they did anything on the shift. In that regard, they controlled the game. and their dominance over their opponents transcended any comparison. That is, "two-way" and other attributes typically (and correctly) associated with "normal" hockey players didn't matter.

And frankly, among all of the players I've seen since the 70s, they are the only two for whom such consideration didn't apply, for they were so above the rest.

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