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05-30-2013, 09:56 PM
Join Date: May 2012
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Defense is comprised of more than hits, but hits do play a small part (1/10).

FYI, I believe Giveaways aren't actually a "defensive" stat as to get a giveaway you need possession of the puck (hence you are technically on offense) and then have it lost by a player on the other team "taking it away" from you. I still do believe they are both equally as important statistics, but for defensive sakes, Takeaways is the one to use because it is an actual defensive stat, hence why it was used by the author of that article i posted above.

Show me a link to defensive zone faceoff % and more than gladly use them. For now, totals will have to do. Might skew things, but I highly doubt it. More likely they even each other out and you get a general picture about how likely a team is to win a faceoff at any faceoff dot on the ice. I think that's the key thing here.

How are Goals Against per Game, Shots Against per Game, Hits, Blocked Shots, Takeaway, and Faceoff % arbitrary? Okay maybe the last one but the first 5 statistical categories are all defensive categories. Do you disagree with this statement?

Now you're using injuries as excuses. I provide statistics in coming off with a somewhat logical conclusion on how well defensively a certain team or teams has/have played and your response is "oh well LA just won a cup and all cup teams are usually rusty the year after to start and Quick had back surgery that he's still recovering from" which is all true and fine and dandy. But the way I see it, excuses. In fact, how do you end up 5th place in the standings and use that as an excuse for how well you played in any respect, offensively/defensively/whatever. Now with their playoff performance, can you still use those above excuses?

The "ranking" system isn't a joke as mentioned below in this post.

He played 22 AHL playoff games that year, won 15 of them.

I remember that game very well as i watched it live. I remember Toews scoring like 3 times in a row after the first 3 players shot. Price was letting in every shot on their repeat scorer Mueller I believe. Eventually he stopped enough for them to win and move onto the Gold Medal Game.

Pogge has never won the Calder Cup, let alone in the same year he won the World Juniors, was the World Juniors Goalie of the Tournament (ahead of Tuukka Rask), Tournament MVP, Jack A. Butterfield Trophy as the AHL Playoffs MVP.

Yes we have high expectations, hence why everyone says he should be better. But people make it seem like this means nothing. It doesn't mean more than winning a cup and a conn smythe, but before last season, Price's accomplishments trumped Quick's. Now, the opposite.

If that is the case then why is PO hockey very hard hitting and the games are extremely close? I might be making a stretch but I feel like they complement each other...

Takeaways are not meaningless. What do u mean by "no standard set between rinks to even count them"? They are counted, and are on the website. Thank you for illustrating my point. As I believe takeaways are a minorly important defensive stat, you make the argument that the team with the puck more often (like we did for most games this season) will have less opportunities to take the puck off the other team because the other team doesn't have the puck as much as them. So when people mention "we had the 5th fewest shots on goal this year, we controlled the play, etc" it has very little to do with how we played defensively and almost everything to do with how we played offensively.

I might "grasp" but this logic of "we had the fewest shots on goal in the league" deal and that's why we're such a great defensive team might work for most teams like, say LOS ANGELES who were consistently for the past 5 years a team that allowed the 6th fewest shots allowed/game or lower in the NHL. But for a team like Montreal who I think has cracked the top 10 in SA/G over the past 5 seasons maybe once, it doesn't.

Top Dman in the league does not have the most giveaways because as you said "they have the puck the most often". Talk about grasping. Out of the Norris finalists, only 1 was in the Top 10 in Giveaways this year (Subban) only 2 in the top 30 (Subban, Letang was 27th), but nice try...if you're going to rationalize that Subban is in the top 10, well let's just say that he probably has to grow his skills still (being the youngest of all 3 and especially defensively) and he likes to handle the puck much more than Letang and Suter, don't you think?

What it means is that teams spent probably much less time in our zone than years past and that we gave up less shots on net and less shots directed at the net. Now is this a correlation that the team was better defensively? Possibly, but it could also show that the team was also MUCH MUCH BETTER at maintaining possession and keeping the puck in the O-Zone (something I saw game after game). What I didn't see during our regular season and playoff games is our defense consistently playing well defensively.

My understanding of statistics might be mind-boggling to you. Explain to me how this year with our defensive prowess manage to only be about .05 GA/G better this year than 2010-11 where Price was absolutely "incredible". Also, our G/G was almost .5 G/G better this season than it was 2 years ago. Another interesting statistic.

Explain that to me Mr. Statistics Genius.

LOL and GMs have crystal balls that can see the future. This is one of the funniest things i've ever read.

Means nothing? So then Lundqvist's stats the past 5 years mean nothing too, never been past the 2nd round is a failure, etc.

Jesus ****ing Price people, enough with the hyperbolic statements. Of course it doesn't mean more than winning a SC/winning a Conn Smythe, but it doesn't mean nothing either.

Halak didn't just give our team a chance, HE STOLE GAMES FOR US. Quick might steal a game or two in the POs, but in only 2 rounds, Halak probably "stole" half of them (7 games). Quick gives his team a chance to win by coming up with timely saves. Our team has been average for years and one year our goalie stood on his head and took us to the ECF. Everyone knows this and says this, including other fans.

FYI in 2010-11 Price gave our team many chances in many games to win (hence the 3 OT games in that 7 game series against the eventual SC Champions) and how do some players reward him, by shooting at TT's pads on a 2 on 1 (Gionta). This year we had no hope whatsoever. Price played well Game 2 and Game 4 and the team in front of him lets him down in Game 3 and 4.

GP has nothing to do with it. Who's in front of him does. Sooner most of you realize this, the better.

He should have been better, but I think he wanted to live the celeb life in Montreal and not focus about winning a SC. That's my opinion, although after trading Halak and proving himself to be a very good goaltender he showed the world what he could do, and then last year with the team's ****storm still had average stats and this year playing well the first 2 months of the season before bed crapping by almost everyone. He needs to elevate his game above regular mode and go into Quick mode.

Cap hit comparables:

Cam Ward: 6.3 million
Ryan Miller: 6.25 million
Pekka Rinne: 7 million
Henrik Lundqvist: 6.875 million

The only thing that he doesn't have that these goalies have is SC (Ward, playing lights out in 06 after coming in for Gerber and Koivu goes down with that eye injury from Williams stick), Vezina Trophy (Miller, Lundqvist) and Vezina Trophy Finalist (Rinne). Price will get all of the above eventually and hopefully it will be while he's still the #1 for Le CH. But despite this, is he a bit overpaid due to his last season's performance? No doubt. Is he overpaid since taking over the #1 from Jaro Halak? Maybe a little but it's an argument to say the least.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Puck possession is defense. If you have the puck for the majority of the time, you don't need to play defense during those times. You're lost. None of those statistics have any bearing on overall defense at all. Your idea that controlling the play and dictating the tempo of a hockey game makes you bad defensively is misguided. Being strong defensively doesn't just mean getting pinned in your own zone and blocking shots. Strong defensive teams are the teams that control possession. I'm not sure why you're even arguing against it. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Some say Hal Gill was good defensively, and I suppose he was if you think being pinned in your own zone during every shift is a good thing.

As far as giveaway/takeaways, there is no league wide standard of how those statistics are counted. Take a look at home/away records for these completely useless stats. They're all over the place. Every year, the best players in the league lead in giveaways. Every year since the useless stat has been recorded.

Then you ramble on about the shots and puck-possession of previous years like this is somehow relevant to this year. We were talking about the 2012-2013 season, no? The habs roster was completely different from previous years. One of the driving forces behind our puck possession is the General, Andrei Markov, our record with/without him is astonishing, why, he drives up puck possession with his elite first pass. We added two solid rookies that contributed enormously, one a calder finalist and one just outside. Then Diaz/Yemelin had a year under their belt, boullion was added, prust was added, Armstrong was added. The team was completely different. You're stuck in the wrong season.

The reason our GA against was 14th this year is because our franchise goalie **** the freaking bed, that's why. For 10 games he couldn't stop a beach ball. For 40% of the games his SV% was under .900. Nothing special about him this year, he cost us more games than he won us.

Last edited by habsfanatics*: 05-30-2013 at 10:03 PM.
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