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06-03-2013, 10:39 AM
  #115
dmanfish90
How about 76 for 25?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
If Gorges isn't a top 4 by your standards, then I think you over-estimate the average quality of the best 4 defensemen on a typical team. Look at the 3rd or 4th guy on each team, not all that many are more effective than Gorges.
Gorges is barely top 4 by my standards. Habsfanatics is 100% right. Look at the 3rd 4th guy on Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, Minnesota, Ottawa, New Jersey, St. Louis, Vancouver, Washington. Outside of maybe Minnesota and possibly New Jersey, he's marginally their 4th D, let alone 3rd. Stop over-valuing Gorges. He's a #3/#4 D man on a team with very little depth on defense at the NHL level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I've always evaluated our dmen well. I do not support trading Markov for nothing. However there are better dmen on the market for lesser cap hits right now who are probably worth very little (Bieksa comes to mind). The fact is, Markov is making number 1 money and is performing like a 4/5 dman. That equals pretty much no trade value. Any team that has Markov as a top pairing dman is going nowhere and its time we accept that. Subban right now is better than Markov ever was, and we just simply can't have a guy who can't kill penalties and is a liability 5 on 5 eating up almost 6 million in cap space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
great great post my friend . Also consider this , our D is swiss cheese and we saw it in the playoffs . Relying on Markov at this stage moving forward knowing we are nowhere close to competing for a title just makes your point even more relevant .

This isn`t Reghier who just signed a cap friendly 2 year deal to be a defensive piece on a stanley cup champion team , this is a soon to be 35 year old who lost 2 steps and is not a reliable 5/5 defender playing major minutes , making big money .
At the time (meanwhile still injured) his stats before this contract showed that he deserves #1 money, even though it's not considered upper echelon #1 money (Phaneuf makes just about the same as him, if not more and he had better seasons than him in Calgary). Add to the fact that not only could he score points, but he could stop plays from happening too. Now everything changed really once he couldn't come back after a year from a knee injury, but hey we got unlucky in that respect. He comes back and still puts up huge numbers for a guy who missed most of 2 seasons and despite being bad defensively, i'll give him a pass because of what i said above and that he played 48 games in about 3 months and 34 games before that in about the same time as well in Russia.

If you propose Bieksa for Markov, I will actually laugh because everyone knows that Markov is more valuable than Bieksa (even post-injury).

Honestly, you are undervaluing Markov because your basing his value on this year alone. There are barely any Dmen with better vision, offensive skill than Markov. You don't trade a guy like that for nothing people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
I dont trade him unless I get decent value , if VCR wants to dump Hamhuis to save a few cap years he is gone

but moving forward with him beyond 2014 is not what I would do
What if he scores 50 points next year? Do you not move forward with him beyond 2014 still?

Honestly people, you have to wait because there is only one way IMO that we are trading Markov and it's contigent on a couple things:

1) He waives his NMC and,

2) We are out of PO contention (serious contention) by the deadline.

If that isn't the case, we keep Markov till the end of 2013-14 season and if his production is still reasonably high (40+ points) then you sign him to a 1-2 year deal in the 2014 offseason. Letting him go without getting value back (a SC or prospects/picks/player(s)) is just plain stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
It's just my opinion that Markov is pretty much invisible in playoffs (can't even deny this but again...imo...that's what I see).

And he doesn't even help the PP in playoffs (and then some now will say ''playoffs is not all about PP''...and I never said that!, but still...would be nice if Markov could be a warrior in playoffs or help the PP in playoffs...something! but we all know it will never happen). But I'm actually getting tired of myself being against Markov! I was actually happy he stayed healthy this season, but...it was all for nothing in the end. I guess we just have to wait a bit more and see what happens to Markov 'cause imo there's no way Bergevin will/should give him 3 more years!! If it happens...

And, I agree with the other part...about Subban being flashy (and I love it! of course not everyone does...but I understand the point you were trying to make...or made).

Cheers!

Go Markov Go!! (go away...please!).
I would give him 3 more years (2013-14 till 2015-16) if he gets 40+ points a season and is signed to a top 4 defenseman cap hit (under 4 million per year).

I think you're not realizing that the last POs Markov played before this year was 2008-09 where the team was in dysfunction in the dressing room and got swept by the B's. 2007-08 he had 4 points in 12 GP: a little underwhelming for Markov but was only 2 points away from playing like Markov from that year. 2005-06 he played bad. 2003-04 he played great for us and 2001-02 he played great for a sophmore in the NHL.

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