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01-06-2004, 10:29 PM
  #54
stardog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
CP signs the contracts. He is given a budget and when he exceeds that budget it is his fault.
Yes he does. And never has he been over budget unless the owners approve. When a player is signed to a three year deal and the budget is changed without notice, by a drastic margin in each off season over the course of four years that is extremely relevant and is in no way CPs fault for signing the player in the first place when he had the owners approval. Sometimes (as the case this year) the budget is changed MID SEASON. Do you expect him to sign players to a half year contract then? So that is one point that you are off on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
When he signs exoribtant contracts and has to dump key players for virtually nothing, it is a bad job of managing assets or being short-sighted as you say.
Lemme guess. The Jagr contract is the exorbinant one right? At the time he signed Jags, we just had a new money man owner come in by the name of Roger Marino who put that contract at the top of his priority list. Jagr was coming off of three straight scoring titles and was the most dominant offensive player in the league. Was he susposed to decline signing Jagr to a long term deal? It wasnt until two years after when the money started going south and so did Marino's ownership.
What other exorbinant contracts did he sign players to? Another point you are wrong on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
HOw can a GM be so clueless to the finacial wealth of his team?
He sin't. He knows the situation and the finacial stress and thats the whole point of salary dump trades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
The point about Fata being picked up off of waivers is that he was merely a throw in, in the Kovy deal. He was not that valuable. He could have been had for free earlier. In other words, more value could have been gained from that trade then what was given. Look at the Owen Nolan deal. Toronto and the Rangers were both bidding for Kovalev at the time.......
And how do you know this? Were you privy to all of the offers recieved from any team? Fata was a good aquisition and like I said, when we "could have had him for free" we didnt need him. So while you may not be outright wrong on this point, you can never prove that you are right. And if he DID recieve a better offer then why on earth would he have not taken it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I'm sure that you also believe the Kovy deal was much more valuable then the one the Penguins ended up accepting.
Huh???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
CP has had a terrible tendency to not deal players at the right time. He should have dealt Straka at the beginning of the season, and saved his team more money, since that was his plan all along. He should have traded Kovalev at the beginning of the season, and saved his team roughly 3.5 million.
Cp has tried to trade Straka for longer than he has tried to trade Kovalev. He had no takers worth even remotely anything. I know for a fact that one offer straight up was Boyd deveraux for Straka. He didnt take it. Once he and the owners saw that attendance was down by an average of 3000 fans this year, he knew that they had to take whatever he could get. IMO this was a bad trade only because the Pens are paying a portion of Straka's salary next year (providing there is a next year. Anshakov is a solid prospect as witnessed by his strong showing at this years WJC's.
Another point you have been mislead to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
My point with the others, is that CP has bad decisions with very talented players without being cash-strapped. If you let go guys of the talent that Naslund, Zubov, Lang, Lalime, for virtually nothing in return then either CP or his scouts are doing a terrible job.
This is where you are being extremely short sighted and shows me that you do not know the history of the Pens as well as you claim to.
Lets start with the Naslund trade. Not a great trade then but in hindsight is God awful now. You are looking at things through hind sight. Does any GM have that priviledge? A HUGE no.
The facts are that Naslund was not playing well At the time of his trade. Naslund had 67 points in 151 career games for the Penguins.There were seven forwards on that Penguins TEAM alone who were outscoring him at the time. After he was traded he still struggled in Vancouver for several years before finally becoming a dominant player 5 years after the trade. Dont tell me that you knew at the time Naslund would become so great. Noone did.
Stojanov was the 7th overall pick in Naslunds draft year. Who knew he would get in a horrific car crash that essintially ended his pro career. Like I said the trade was not a good one in my eyes to begin with but only 5 years after did it become God awful. There are mitigating circumstances that you fail to point out either in order to strenthen your argument or because you dont know what the truth is.
Next is Zubov. He was VERY good on the Pens blue line, yet he fell out of favor with the team for his refusal to shoot the puck. I was at the arena on occasion when the chants of "shoot" would go up. Is this enough reason to trade a player of his caliber? Nope. But if you get equal return and an element you lack it is enough. Kevin Hatcher in 1996 was equal return. The two seasons after the trade he out pointed Zubov, and was much better in his own end. What made this trade a little bad in my eyes was the age factor, but the Pens at the time were playing for the cup, and thought Hatchers size and strength could help them better than Zubov. Again this is a hind sight issue yet at the time of the trade it was a good one considering Hatcher twice made the all star team as a Penguin.
Lalime? PLEASE!!!!! This guy demanded such a high salary to be a back up to Bar******* and when he didnt get it, refused to negotiate and said he wouldnt play for the Pens. At the time the trade didnt make even a blip on the hockey radar. If this was such a bad trade then why wasnt there even the mildest of outrages? Lalime also is over rated even now IMO.
Two of these trades are bad but hardly were bad to the magnitude that you are making them seem at the time in which they happened.
Lets talk about how he aquired these players as well. If you want to point out his flaws then at least be equal and un biased here.
Luc Robataille and Ulfie to the Rags for Nedved and Zubov. BOOM!
How about Ron Francis, Ulf Samuelsson, and Grant Jennings in exchange for John Cullen, Zarley Zalapski, and Jeff Parker? Or Larry Murphy and Peter Taglianetti in exchange for Chris Dalquist and Jim Johnson? Joey Mullen for a 2nd rounder? Gordie Roberts for futures? Those ones right there brought us two cups my friend.Kevin Stevens and Shawn McEachern to BOS for Bryan Smolinksi and Glen Murray.Tomas Sandstrom and Shawn McEachern in exchange for Marty McSorley and Jim Paek.#7 to Edmonton for Tyler Wright. Smolinski to Isles for Kaspar and Johanssen.Traded Chris Wells to Florida for Stu Barnes and Jason Wooley.Shawn Antoski and Dmitri Mironov to the Ducks for Alex Hicks and Steady Freddy Olausson. Ken Wregget to the Flames for German Titov.
These were all made in the same time period of the trades you mentioned.
More recently, money became a factor in every trade he made yet you dont buy that so there is no point in arguing that one.
Robert Lang....Did you want us to sign him for 25 million dollars which we didnt have?
Oh yeah, how did we get Lang again? Cp picked him up off the waiver wire. Same goes for Straka. Smashing.
Preferably I would have liked to see him trade Lang at the deadline but apparently the value he was offered wasnt as good as the 2nd round comp pick he recieved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
CP is one of the most important people in the Penguins organization and to not give him any share of the blame for the mess the Penguins are in, is ridiculous. You are giving him a double standard that I find sickening.
Actually it is you who are giving him the double standard. I fail to even see where you can think we are not judging him. Every move he makes is met with both criticism and approval by our fans.Noone who is educated is giving him a free ride just because he is in our orginization. I have criticized him on may occasions. Yet I must intervene when you point his flaws generously while at the same time, you both fail to recognize his great accomplishments and recognize the fact that every other general manager of every other teams makes some of the same poor moves that CP has made. That is text book for the definition of a double standard. Name me one GM who is close to perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
He can have a terrible draft record,
He doesn't....If you would like to say he has a terrible record of developing draft picks then we can agree. From 1990-97 31 of the players picked by the Pens have played in the NHL.Far from terrible IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
make terrible trades,
Been over that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
ice a terrible team,
11 straight playoff appearances and two cup's later we ice a terrible team. Hmmmmm....got me on that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
Bottomline: He isn't doing a great job. I know all about the history of the Pens.
Both you and I have proven that you dont know it. Not well enough to make the accusations that you are making.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I have also noticed that they have turned a blind eye to what their GM is doing and blame it on a lack of money.
Yes some fans turn a blind eye, but not this one. And yes I will blame it on the lack of money because that is the cause. We had to rid ourselves of our best players due to that reason alone. We ice a bad team due to that reason coupled with a poor development record, which, BTW, is on the upswing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I'm not saying that CP is an idiot, far from it,
Yet you are saying he is a very bad GM and have said things along those lines many times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
As for you final comment about admitting I'm wrong if the Pens start to win........absolutely not. What does the Penguins winning in the future have to do with my analysis of the Penguins current situation.
Absolutely everything. That is what rebuilding is all about Enoch. If they win in the future then it proves that his plan was in fact a success. And it proves his talent even better by stemming from a situation where his hands are clearly tied.Your analysis now cant be just for now because what happens to this team in the future is a direct result of what is happening now. Thats pretty plain to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I am grasping it, and the points aren't false. Each point is key to sucessfully being a GM.
Not really. You or I do not know the formula for being a succesful GM. We can only base what makes one on each individuals results. CP's results are not only good but very good. And IF he is succesful in the future with the players he aquired with the rebuilding it adds another feather to his cap in that he knows how to build from the ground up.

In addition you are making the mistake of looking at things as a black and white issue. There are so many grey's here that it is unreal. You do not choose to recognize those as I have pointed out which isnt a bad thing because as a Preds fan you arent really susposed to know the entricate details of a team you do not follow. I know alot more about this team, and why they are in this mess, and thier history than you do is my point. Thus I have a better understanding of those grey areas. You can look at the current line up and make your assumptions based on that but if you really knew Craig Patricks history you wouldn't be near as harsh on him as you clearly are.

Preds fans Im sorry for taking up your boards space with this....Good luck.


Last edited by stardog: 01-06-2004 at 10:50 PM.
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