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07-07-2013, 01:17 PM
  #56
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I think that's being missed a little by the, 'well, they just wanted to give it to someone other than Gretzky' crowd.

In 1984, Gretzky had 35 points in 19 games. Messier had 26 in the same number of games.

That works out to roughly an extra point from Gretzky every two games. But in exchange, Messier was giving you tougher minutes, clutch scoring, a far superior defensive presence, and a bruising physical game.

The point at which those 'intangibles' start to outweigh the extra scoring is subjective, but its certainly not unreasonable to say that Messier had surpassed it in 1984.
When comparing players, it's generally stated as the "consensus opinion" that a PPG player like Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Toews, who also offers elite defensive play is not a better player than a defensive liability like Stamkos, who scores maybe 15-20 more points in an 80 game season.

That's a ~20% increase in scoring, for those keeping up.

Gretzky was 35% higher than Messier. Gretzky has ALWAYS been better defensively than Stamkos. And Messier's physical/defensive game circa 1984 at BEST a wash with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Toews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toob View Post
Gretzky had multipoint games in each of the first 4 games against the Flyers with 9 total points in those so he was clearly finding a way to produce against the Flyers with the concussion scoring at least as much in each of those games as he did in the entire series against the Wings

It seems pretty clear from what the media and Gretzky was saying about Detroit's play style in the conference finals, the clutching and grabbing D focused on him by Detroit seems to be the main reason why he wasnt scoring. The other thing seems to be that there were chances that just werent finished on which happens.

i went ahead and watched all 4 highlight vids and took notes on the lineups on each shift shown. It doesnt seem to be as you say at all. Despite the fact that these are highlights and so Gretzky's line would certainly be featured less than Messier's line proportional to the entire games since the latter was so much more productive it doesnt seem that Yzerman was matched with Messier much more than Gretzky at all.

Game 2:
First minute and half was two fights couldnt really see who was on ice for first fight but second one had Burr's line on and no Gretzky (looked like Messier skated in later) as it said "along over the boards comes 99" after fights
Around 1:55 they have Burr taking draw from Messier while Gretzky is on the ice and then making a change while the Messier skates up and scores. It was Yzerman who changed for Burr while Gretzky was on the ice...
The next shift shows Yzerman's line against the Oilers checking line. The commentators actually say that Demers had chances to take Yzerman's line off against Krushelnyski but kept him on so...
Next shift is Gretzky on the PK against the Wings top PP which is the same thing as their top line and they score a SH goal.
Next is Kocur/McSorley fight and cant see who is on ice.
Next is Probert's PP goal with Detroit top PP against Messier/Kurri PK.
Next shift shown at 6:50 is Yzerman's line against Gretzky's where Delorme goes into Edmonton bench.
Next shift shown at 8:00 is Yzerman's line against Messier's where Messier scores with 1:30 left.
Right after that shift Yzerman stays out against Edmonton's checking line.
After that shows Yzerman's line still out there against the Edmonton checking line scoring an EN goal.
Last seconds of game show Yzerman's line out there against the 4th line for Edmonton?

Game 3:
First shift shown is Oates line against what seems like a mishmash of Oilers Krushelnyski/McSorley/Tikkanen.
Next is McTavish's goal against what looks like Burr's line.
Next is Yzerman's line and i cant tell who the forwards are for the Oilers.
Next is Gretzky's line against Burr's line.
Next shows where Messier and Gretzky on the ice are talking to the ref and you can see Yzerman on the ice as well.
Next is Yzerman's line against Gretzky's line on the Wings no goal play.
Next is Probert's goal. The Yzerman line is out there against the Gretzky line.
Next is Yzerman's line making a play and i see Anderson on with the backcheck.
Then the announcers say "you know what theyve done to this man" referring to Gretzky.
Next is Oates line against Gretzky's line without Gretzky as McTavish is centering.
Next is a scrum with Burr's line out against Gretzky.
Next is the McSorley goal. Burr line on for Detroit and 4th line on for Oilers.

Game 4:
Cant see much of who is on during first shown shifts with elbows, looks like Kocur hit Messier before he hit Fuhr going to bench?
The first goal starting around 1:50 shows Messier's wingers without Messier against Yzerman and Gallant but not Probert. Detroit had just made a line change.
Next Burr scores and it looks like Messier and Anderson are on.
Next Gallant scores though Yzerman isnt on but Oates/Ashton. McTavish is the only forward i can tell for Oilers.
Next is the Messier line scoring against Burr's line.
Next is Gretzky on but not with Kurri/Tikkanen but with Krushelnyski scoring against Burr's line. The announcers say this is an example of Gretzky being doubleshifted.
Immediately after at 5:30 is Yzerman facing off against Messier.
Then the announcers talk about how Gretzky only had 1 assist (2 counting the game) so far and how it is difficult to play against Detroit's teamstyle, referring to congestion here.
Next is Oates and Klima against the Oilers checking line.
Next is the announcers talking about Gretzky's nose on the bench while the Wing's top line faces off against some line without Gretzky obv.
Next is the announcers saying Tikkanen not on bench and Krushelnyski played on Gretzky's LW last shift.
The last 20 seconds is Yzerman facing off against Messier. Gretzky was shown on the bench. Lines seem different Hunter is on for Oilers while Klima is on for Red Wings.
Gretzky's interview has him saying that the Wings playing defensive clutch and grab style game. He was surprised in his own team's D. He says that he felt he was playing well enough though not scoring and cant be too critical of himself.

Game 5:
First shift shown is Wings top line scoring on PP against Hunter/McTavish.
Next is Coffey scoring. Yzerman is on the ice as against Anderson/Kurri. Third F on the left is hard to tell. Doesnt look like Gretzky/Messier. Nilsson?
Next Ashton scores as Oates line out against Gretzky line.
Next shows Gallant's shot on Fuhr. Krushelnyski is only Oiler F i can see. Yzerman was on ice.
Next is the announcers taking about Sather switching Gretzky as needed before he faces off against Yzerman and his line. Gretzky is playing with Krushelnyski.
After talking about hockey sticks they show Gretzky on the bench and Yzerman on ice for a faceoff.
Next is Burr who might have changed and Ashton/Higgins out there against McTavish's line.
Next is Yzerman's goal. Doesnt look like he is on his regular line skating with Ashton/Klima. Gretzky is on the ice with Krushelnyski.
Next is the MacTavish line scoring while Yzerman/Klima/Higgins? are on.
Next is the Gallant shot that hurts Fuhr. You hear Kurri by the announcers and it looks like Anderson is the guy who takes a swing at Yzerman when he starts out from his own zone. Cant tell if thats Gretzky getting tackled in front?
Next is Messier's goal where it is Messier's line out against Yzerman's line.
Next is Messier's goal where it is Messier's line out against Burr's line.
Next is Smith's EN goal. Yzerman/Messier lines on the ice.
Next is Nilsson's EN goal. Messier's line is out. I see Klima/Gallant cant tell the other Detroit Fs.

The 87 Red Wings played a tight defensive style that continued in the playoffs and kept all 4 losses against the Oilers close, late/EN goals make the scores in game 2 and 5 look much more lopsided. And Yzerman was certainly a big part of that team style and this is documented.

He did it despite a Red Wings' commitment to a strict defensive style that limits scoring opportunities.

"We're going to play the same style, try to check and check and wait for our breaks," said Detroit captain Steve Yzerman, the man credited with doing most of the work to keep Edmonton's Wayne Gretzky away from the goal on Tuesday.

Steve Yzerman was paired up against the Oilers' Wayne Gretzky.
Thanks for doing this; I was about ready to go through and do this and then saw your post.

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