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07-19-2013, 08:43 AM
  #434
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nowhere in there do I read anything about how he's worth less than Gorges. Nowhere in there do I see any kind of rationale for paying him 2.8 million. MB wanted to see more from him before signing him long term? Okay... still think it's a dumb decision but whatever. Paying him 2.8 though makes absolutely no sense at all and your article doesn't come close to explaining this.
Georges singed a one-year contract prior to signing his long term deal, and was becoming a UFA. I know that you (conveniently) refuse to see the difference between a second contract and a player entitled to become UFA, but it doesn't make this key factor in negotiations disappear. You keep the rights to a RFA unless he signs an offer-sheet, but even then you get compensation and you can match that offer (see Weber). You just lose a UFA. Another fact.

You keep reverting back to the $2.875M Subban is getting, qualifying it as low-ball. Looking at what Subban had done at that time, it's a bit higher than what Del Zotto received in New York. Kris Letang signed a bridging contract ($3.5M) and he was a key contributor to two Stanley Cup finals including a win over Detroit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What facts have you brought to the table? I've seen your unsubstantiated conjecture that he would be motivated to play better without a long term contract. A highly debatable position that is about a million years away from being a fact.
  • Bergevin wants to instate a way of doing business with the bridging contract
  • He knows that others will follow suit, including Galchenyuk, and he'll now be able to say "Even PK had to take a bridging contract"
  • The cap will go down to a little over $60M next year, down from $70M+
  • By the time Subban's contract is up, Gionta and Markov's contracts will be done
  • Subban had issues in the dressing room, even fighting with teammates in practice
  • Hockey is a business and feelings come second. Players and management know that.
  • Now that he's proving himself and has improved, including winning the Norris, PK will be getting his big contract, something Bergevin has said not having a problem with.
Those are unsubstantiated conjecture? Really?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We didn't need the cap space last year and won't need it this year.
Says who? Last year is hindsight. Bergevin was trying to add to the team at the trade deadline but he said that the asking price was too high and he wasn't willing to jeopardize the future for a short term solution. Fans should embrace that as it's so refreshing compared to the 1st/2nd round picks traded for the likes of Moore, Lang, Wizniewsky and company of the past... And who's to say that he won't need it or use it this year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And like I said, MB probably is wishing he did it now too. Because now PK has a Norris behind him and Don Meehan is going to take us for all he can. And this contract will come in years where we actually will (hopefully) have a contending team and will be more likely to need the cap space.
Saying that Bergevin is wishing he did it now is speculative and/or wishful thinking at best. He made a decision at the time that made sense to him and many others, even if some disagree(d) with him. He has even said at the time that he'll have no problem paying Subban his true value for his next contract so yes, Meehan and Subban will have their pay day but it will be fully deserved, even more so now than two years prior. Nothing wrong with paying a Norris caliber Subban his true value as opposed to paying in hope that he keeps on progressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm saying you lose credibility because what the critics said back then has come true. PK would have a good year and his worth would shoot up. The guy won the Norris... this is exactly what's happened. So now, rather than admit that folks were right about this, you need to somehow justify your position. Now PK stands to make a hell of a lot more money in the long run. And yes, I think you sitting there with this "incentive" argument is a load of hogwash.
Where you're wrong (and perhaps making things up) is when you assume that I'm wrong. I was one of the ones defending Subban saying that he had Norris potential (go read the countless Subban vs McDonaugh threads on the main board). The fact and the matter is that he wasn't a Norris caliber player when he signed his bridging contract... yet. He had the talent to get there, but he had a lot of things to work out, including his attitude and team relationships. You saying that my argument is hogwash is... well... just as hogwash. It's speculative in both case. The difference is that I've been admitting it all along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
As for calling Bergevin an idiot, I did no such thing. I said that I was hopeful that he'd be a good GM but found some of his moves puzzling. What I did say though was that some GMs were idiots and its very clear that being a GM isnt necessarily a sign of intellect.
Come on. We weren't born yesterday. The fact that you're bringing it up in this topic (Subban's bridging contract, Bergevin's decision), isn't about Gainey, Gauthier or Houle, let's face it. But it's irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So please don't make this very weak, desperate and tired argument because it carries zero weight with anyone.
Funny, that's how I feel about yours to. Who's right? Mmmm... I'd say it's a matter of opinion and not facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Why? If Galchenyuk proves himself as PK did, why not learn from this and give him 5 for 25? If Gally plays well and he pulls this crap with him, Galchenyuk might demand a trade. And he'd be justified doing it too... We're lucky it didn't happen with PK.
Speculative. Fact is that a trend is being instated with the organization: ELC, followed by a bridging contract, then your big bucks. Pacioretty, Price, then Subban did it. Agents (including Meehan) will know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Possibly. But this is all the more reason to lock down players for longer at lower amounts like we suggested. And we're now going to pay PK more money so how the hell does this support Side B? If the cap goes down, this supports Side A.
So $5M+ when the cap goes down is better than $2.875M? Is that what you're saying? Remember... the cap is said to going back up by the time Subban's contract expires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So what? What does Gionta or Markov have to do with anything here? They are irrelevant to this discussion.
You really don't want to admit it, do you? $11M off the books for both of them (if not re-signed) by the time PK's new contract kicks in. Cap going up $6M. PK's $3M. That's close to $20M to pay PK and others. Still irrelevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Subban's "issues" are not fact, it's speculative.
Denying even video evidence and coaches' comments. Head in the sand syndrome.

Listen, I'll leave you the last word. Not because I don't think I have a point, but because we're going in circle and mostly, I won't convince you (not that I was trying, I respect your opinion, even if you take it as factual), and you sure won't make me change mine either. So keep debating, it's won't go anywhere.

In my opinion, the bridge deal was the thing to do, even in hindsight. It's worth paying PK more with more flexibility on the cap and now that he's matured to who he is becoming. I truly believe that Bergevin and Therrien's actions have had a huge impact on who he has become. He has changed and while he still has some work to do (see the Pacioretty incident in the playoffs), I'm fully confident that he'll get there, possibly as soon as this year. Then he can sign for top dollars and he will have become a sure bet.


Last edited by Habsterix*: 07-19-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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