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07-22-2013, 02:53 PM
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Sorry, I don't buy it as if it were true, not many of your posts would remain "without attacks" as it seems to be your favourite strategy of debate, seeing your interaction in this thread. No respect for others' opinion because they differ from yours.
I respect other opinions. Yours and some others, on this matter, are just not worthy of it.

Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Hindsight is a beautiful thing, isn't it?

Funny that you reply to this message but not to that one. The kitchen getting too hot?
No hindsight needed, go read the PK thread during the negotiation. You'll see I was very much for the long term deal.

As for your previous post, I didn't see the need to respond to it considering you wrote the same thing to LG and he countered your points well. But if you want me to shred it apart I'll be glad to do it.

Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Again, refusing to see the reality of the evidence I've brought up or brushing it off because you disagree doesn't make it any less valid. Put the shoe on the other foot... I disagree with your opinion on the matter. Should I also say that it's not valid? Perhaps.

The fact of the matter is that Pacioretty had finished a second season with the Habs, accumulating 24 points (14 goals) in 37 games. He was the Habs' top rated power forward, a huge lack on that team. While he may not have played Subban's minutes, he also didn't get $2.9M per season for his bridging deal, signing for $1.6M instead. Some will argue that Patches is the Habs best player (or forward), winning the scoring race on the team this past season.

Price? He had played pretty much 3 full seasons in the NHL by the time his ELC expired, stealing the starter's job from Huet. He had already won 60 NHL regular seasons' games and had a Sv% of about .915 at that stage in his career, including winning a Molson Cup, being named on the NHL All-Rookie Team and was an NHL All-Star and that's leaving out what he had done in junior and in the AHL! What more do you want? Yet, he signed a bridging contract at $2.75M for two years.

I know that you want to discredit both those players when comparing them to Subban but they were (and still are) key players on this team today and even though Bergevin did not sign those bridging contract, they obviously fit with his current and future plan for this franchise, meaning that we don't mind paying you what you'll be worth once we start buying some of your UFA years but in the mean time, a bridging contract is necessary. We won't take huge risks like they did with Myers in Buffalo and Skinner in Carolina.
MaxPac almost got decapitated, how you conveniently leave this out makes me lose respect for your post. This isn't something that you can just shove under the rug.
He also, as you mentioned, just scored 24pts. I don't care in how many games, the sample size is just way too small for it to warrant a long term investment.

As for Price, no, he didn't steal the starting job from Huet. They were both used evenly, and then Gainey moved Huet giving Price the position, it left a lot of people scratching their heads. Now that this is clear. Price also LOST the #1 spot to Halak. How you again leave this out shows you're only trying to find excuses.

What about Kane? Toews? and the many others who have been gambled on and it paid off??
As for Myers, he struggled in his sophomore year, a lot. Then he got injured. Never been the same since. But really a 10M signing bonus? Not at all comparable to PK.
Skinner is the same, those kids showed signs of dropping after their rookie year.
Not PK.

Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
There you go again... because I disagree with you, you feel like my points are garbage. It's becoming a constant don't you think? I, on the other hand, respect your opinion even though I strongly disagree with it. I guess it comes with age, experience and maturity.

So let's see YOUR facts:
  1. PK signed for $2.8M. Well, it's almost $2.9M ($2.875M to be precise) but that's effectively a fact.
  2. PK won a Norris. Absolutely, I never denied it... but that happened AFTER the bridging contract.
So two facts, including one that's in hindsight. Pretty good. Here are the ones I've brought forward:
  1. Bergevin wants to instate a way of doing business with the bridging contract
  2. The cap will go down to a little over $60M next year, down from $70M+
  3. By the time Subban's contract is up, Gionta and Markov's contracts will be done, which will free up close to $11M on the cap, monies not available last year and this coming season as the cap is going down.
  4. With the revenues from this season, the salary cap is predicted to go back to around $70M from the $64M it will be next season, adding another $6M of cap space.
  5. PK is making almost $3M in cap hit ($2.875M), which means that the team will have close to $20M to sign Subban. Even if they give him $8M, they still have $12M to sign two players to replace Gionta and Markov, more than what they make now!
  6. Subban had issues in the dressing room, even fighting with teammates in practice
  7. Hockey is a business and feelings come second, meaning that feelings may appear to get hurt in the process but players and management know that it's not personal. That's why Plekanec re-signed after going to arbitration when the fan base was acting like you guys saying that he'd be pissed and leave at the first opportunity.
  8. Alex Galchenyuk is next on the highly rated list to have to go through this scenario. Seeing that Pacioretty, Price and Subban did the same, it will be a lot easier to make him swallow the bridging contract when his ELC expires as history is made.
  9. Gallagher will also be going through that, then Tinordi and others there after. The precedent is set.
  10. Now that he's proving himself and has improved, including winning the Norris, PK will be getting his big contract, something Bergevin has said not having a problem with.
But you're right though, I did make some speculations. I did say that at the time of negotiating his last contract, there was a risk for PK to have a drop in production (Myers & Skinner) and that he might have used this bridging contract as additional motivation to prove the Habs wrong. But I've never claimed that those were facts, not even once. It doesn't mean that it's not true or that it's false, it only means that there's no way to prove that unless we look in hindsight (Norris).
First off, I think your points are garbage because they are that, not because you disagree with me.

Take your list:
1- Bridge contract is one thing, I have mentioned I could let this go. Forcing your star player to miss the beginning of the season because you want him to sign a way below value deal is something completely different.

2- The cap will go down, and we had enough space with the compliance buy outs.

3- Gionta and Markov's contracts will come off by next year, but you're assuming they won't be re-signed or replaced. Gionta maybe can be let go, but Markov, if he has a similar year or even improves shouldn't. You also don't mention there are other FAs up for re-signals like Emelin and Eller, and perhaps Diaz if we keep him. Not to mention, addition of UFAs.

4- Subban having issues in the locker room is media hoopla garbage. Nothing factual came of this other than Gill telling PK to pick up his jersey when he threw it on the floor, or others telling him to change the music. It's completely speculative from your part. He did fight in practice, but if you see it's from him battling with guys in corners. Plekanec has been involved as well, so did DD, so do a million of other guys. Obviously the guy that has a bigger personality gets the bad rep.
Otherwise, PK's work ethic is irreproachable, he is a professional, never caught doing something bad, off ice training is amazing, always in camp in great shape. But ya, he has issues..

5- Completely speculative. Players can hold grudges via coaches or GMs. It's not because it's a business that every decision from management is right, and when it's wrong, players have every right to be upset.
Arbitration is completely different than making your star miss the start of the year, seemingly alienate him from the team, and force him to take a well below value deal. They are world apart. For the record, I never thought arbitration would make Plekanec leave.

6/7- Again, a bridge contract is one thing, forcing him to take well below his value is another. If Gally ends up having two 80pts+ season back to back, I'll be very surprised if he agrees to 2y/4M. Same can be said of every other player.

8- Yes, Bergevin has no choice but to give him his big pay day now. He could have had him for cheaper before, he decided to make the commitments and risks on local less important players like DD and Bouillon.
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
So is PK Subban a better deal at $5-6M per season for 5 years? If you look at last year and next, no but for the following 3 years, absolutely. But then again, if you take what was saved this year and next and deduct it off Subban's next contract for the next 3 years, it makes those 3 years more affordable and closer. Here's an example:

$2.875M + $2.875M + $8M + $8M + $8M = $29.75M
$5.5M + $5.5M + $5.5M + $5.5M + $5.5M = $27.5M

So you have a difference of about $2M total over the length of the 5 years and yet, you save the dollars when the cap will be at its tightest, next season! I truly and genuinely feel like the bridging contract was the right thing to do.

So you and the others can go on a Bergevin witch hunt all you want, but in my opinion, while I recognize, appreciate and respect your opinion, I feel like not only was he justified with his actions, but he was right in doing so. Subban is now maturing as a player, as a man, and he's buying into the team concept or so it seems. Great, he will be that much better for the Habs.

So you may call that garbage all you want Kriss, but it isn't, at least not in my (and others) eyes.
The cap hit is where it differs, this is also following your numbers only.

You're right that the cap will be the lowest next year, but that's not when it'll be the most important to us. The cap hit will be the most important when we're closer to contention, that's hopefully between 2-4years. That's when we'll have a few players off their ELC, some entering their prime, and we'll need as much cash saved off them so we can go after big names and over pay.

Also, entirely speculative that PK never bought into a team concept before, and I have a hard time understanding where this comes from when it's clear he's a huge team player. Always praises his teammates, always defends them, never throws anyone under the bridge.

Kriss E is offline