Guy Carbonneau HOF
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07-27-2013, 03:44 PM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Originally Posted by
Those bolded guys are all better than Carbonneau. They are defensively strong and produce offense.
Jeremy Roenick was not a one-dimensional player. He was a very good defensive player who's kind of like a poor man's Toews. Not that Toews would have a lot of fun with Mario Lemieux circa 1992.
If Roenick had Patrick Roy and two centres ahead of him who were better than him, Chicago would have been a little better off too.
Few teams win Cups without solid defensive guys, but it's just as true that few teams win without players who can score goals.
We can't just take it for granted that Muller/Damphousse will score goals because it's their job.
The value of a two-way centre who can score goals should easily eclipse the value of a checking centre who doesn't, because even if he's great at being a 1-way checking centre the actual value provided over an average 1-way checking centre is marginal.
And I understand why DF doesn't like me saying Carbonneau was a 2nd/3rd liner,
but what am I supposed to do when confronted with Cup Counting to say 2nd/3rd liners are better than first liners?
Is Henri Richard > Beliveau? No! (Although again, Richard provided offense, unlike Carbs. Perhaps you want to compare Ralph Backstrom?)
Sure, if by "reduce the effectiveness" you mean the #1 centre scored at the exact same rate. The series was won even though Gretzky scored at the same pace. When he was off the ice the Kings were less effective, as non-Gretzky Kings goals dropped from 12 in 7 games vs Toronto to 5 in 5 games vs Montreal. When you're stuck producing >50% of your team's offense while playing ~35% of the minutes, you have issues with your teammates not the opposition's 3rd best centre.
And they're not construction tools, they are hockey players who have to perform multiple functions. Even we did use the construction tool analogy, the DatsyukDriver is a comparable screwdriver to the CarboDriver model, and Dats also functions as a very good hammer. So he is much more valuable than the screwdriver who is only a screwdriver like David Backes or Jay McClement.
Datsyuk, Bergeron, and Toews all brought offense to the table and ruin your screwdriver analogy. Because unlike Carbs, they're not one-dimensional. Carbo is not Toews. He's Frolik or Bolland. At his best he's about as valuable Mikko Koivu.
I want Begeron and Toews on Team Canada (Datsyuk has the wrong passport). Carbonneau was never invited to Team Canada, not even the defensively-focused 1991 team. Because a 2-way Steve Larmer is better than a 1-way Carbonneau who wasn't even invited to camp. Not a "need-to-have" guy.
Your appreciation of the 1992 Blackhawks is rather unique. Compared to the 1993 Canadiens we have in goal Ed Belfour and Dominik Hasek vs Patrick Roy and Andre Racicot. Dmen Hawks were led by Chris Chelios, Canadiens by Eric Desjardins, edge Chicago. Both teams had one Selke winner - Dirk Graham vs Guy Carbonneau.
Hawks had one high scoring center - Roenick, supported by Brent Sutter at center both were RHS which negated other advantages they may have had since there was a major drop to the third center, Mike Hudson a LHS, so if they needed a LHS center to neutralize/or benefit from Lemieux - RHS, in certain faceoff situations they were seriously handicapped. Canadiens did not have a high end scoring but they had depth and versatility. At least six multiple position forwards and nine that could take faceoffs with a nice RHS/LHS mix.
Yet the Canadiens won in five while the Hawks were swept in four.
You are the one who introduced goal counting into a thread that was about an outstanding defensive center. The litmus test then becomes the object of the game - winning the Stanley Cup as opposed to the Richard Trophy. Roenick while counting more goals won neither.
A few other corrections. Ralph Backstrom was the Canadiens third best defensive center behind Henri Richard and Jean Beliveau. Weaker on faceoffs, less anticipation. He did lead the Canadiens in scoring one season. No comparison to Carbonneau in terms of a best defensive center over a defined twenty season period.
The screwdriver analogy is about being able to properly finish a house or any construction project = winning the SC.Hammers and nails will get you close(the elite scorers and two way players) but you need the specialty of a screwdriver to put in the locks, doorhandles, electrical fixtures, outlets, etc. Try adapting hammers for such jobs.
Up 4-1 with 10 minutes to go in game 7 who do you choose Guy Carbonneau or a first line center(using modern terminology) like Tyler Bozak as your need to have player?
Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-27-2013 at
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