View Single Post
Old
07-27-2013, 07:18 PM
  #117
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,648
vCash: 500
Not the Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Carbonneau actually having won a Cup doesn't mean he was superior to a legitimate two-way player who didn't. Carbonneau being traded to Chicago to be their 3rd line centre doesn't stop Pittsburgh from winning a Cup in 1992.

Many "houses" were finished without a Selke winner as a third line centre, and merely having Carbonneau on your team was no guarantee of team success. Many defensive centres have shown an ability to be effective on the other end of the ice as well.

Up 4-1 the difference between a Carbonneau and Bozak is negligible. After all, it's not like Carbonneau was guaranteed to prevent a goal. (Although everyone should admit Carbonneau is best in situations where you can take goals for granted.) Really the best thing to hope for when up 4-1 is that the best forward on the other team is Guy Carbonneau, because a legitimate 2-way player like Patrice Bergeron might cause problems.

Given Bergeron's superior offense and the fact that Crosby was ACTUALLY shut down (0 Crosby points vs 7 for Gretzky), I can't see why anyone would want a peak Carbonneau over a 2013 Bergeron. But again, we're choosing between a first line player and a 2nd/3rd liner.
Real issue is whether Guy Carbonneau is HHOF worthy not whether he is superior to a flavour of the month scoring center.

You missed the the Carbonneau / Bozak analogy. Neither played in game 7 of the Leafs / Bruins series in 2013. Leaf center with the most minutes was Mikhail Grabovski, an offensive center with little defense.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...305130BOS.html

Your Carbonneau / Bergeron comparison is interesting. Did you fact check your claim before submitting it? Rather important to do so.

You are stuck with the claim that Bergeron is a #1 center and your assertion that Carbonneau is mainly a #3 center. To date Patrice Bergeron has played 579 regular season games with a 0.75PPG result:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...bergepa01.html

Guy Carbonneau in his first 622 NHL regular season generated app. 0.67PPG:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...carbogu01.html

As a first line center Patrice Bergeron sees more PP time plus at ES and on the PP he plays with better offensive players.Evidenced by Bergeron's PP numbers to date 46G and 90A = 136 PTS. Slighly more than 33 1/3% of Bergeron's offense comes from the PP. Conversely at roughly the same point of his career Carbonneau had 6G and 14A = 20PTS on the PP or less than 5% of Carbonneau offensive numbers were the result of PP opportunities..

So now the key question which center Guy Carbonneau or Patrice Bergeron produced more offense at ES? Answer is rather obvious = Guy Carbonneau.

Your characterization of Guy Carbonneau as a third line defensive center with no offensive skills is simply wrong. He had better ES offensive skills than Patrice Bergeron while surrounded with lesser offensive talent and confined to greater defensive responsibilities.

Guy Carbonneau is a definite HHOFer while Patrice Bergeron is a possibility. Hopefully his defense and ES offense improves to Guy Carbonneau levels.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote