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07-27-2013, 08:19 PM
  #119
blogofmike
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ that last quote in your post there mike?, not mine. Important it be ascribed to the author. Thanking you in advance for your attention to & correction of that omission, administrative issue. Edit & fixee upee plz... Now, as for your response to my post, your welcome. Like I said, nice hatchet job. I do enjoy lookin at chainsaw art from time-time. Obviously I dont agree with your assertions & suggestions, comparisons but hey, your entitled to your opinions. If we all agreed on everything pretty boring World.
Whoops. Hopefully fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Real issue is whether Guy Carbonneau is HHOF worthy not whether he is superior to a flavour of the month scoring center.
Then why not ask whether you'd want Carbonneau over an HHOF-worthy player? Someone like an Adam Oates who had issues making the Hall.

Quote:
You missed the the Carbonneau / Bozak analogy. Neither played in game 7 of the Leafs / Bruins series in 2013. Leaf center with the most minutes was Mikhail Grabovski, an offensive center with little defense.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...305130BOS.html
Why keep drawing the line with players like Bozak and Jarvis? They're not HHOF-calibre. I'd take Peter Zezel over Bozak to defend a lead. Doesn't mean we should enshrine him.

Quote:
Your Carbonneau / Bergeron comparison is interesting. Did you fact check your claim before submitting it? Rather important to do so.

You are stuck with the claim that Bergeron is a #1 center and your assertion that Carbonneau is mainly a #3 center. To date Patrice Bergeron has played 579 regular season games with a 0.75PPG result:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...bergepa01.html

Guy Carbonneau in his first 622 NHL regular season generated app. 0.67PPG:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...carbogu01.html
So we're judging Carbonneau by raw point totals from the 1980s. You do know by this method Dale Hawerchuk is leaps and bounds ahead of Gordie Howe.

But hey, you got me. In Guy Carbonneau's highest scoring Selke season he was the offensive equivalent of Dave Ellett. Actually Guy is slightly behind him since Ellett played fewer games, but close enough.

Quote:
As a first line center Patrice Bergeron sees more PP time plus at ES and on the PP he plays with better offensive players.Evidenced by Bergeron's PP numbers to date 46G and 90A = 136 PTS. Slighly more than 33 1/3% of Bergeron's offense comes from the PP. Conversely at roughly the same point of his career Carbonneau had 6G and 14A = 20PTS on the PP or less than 5% of Carbonneau offensive numbers were the result of PP opportunities..

So now the key question which center Guy Carbonneau or Patrice Bergeron produced more offense at ES? Answer is rather obvious = Guy Carbonneau.

Your characterization of Guy Carbonneau as a third line defensive center with no offensive skills is simply wrong. He had better ES offensive skills than Patrice Bergeron while surrounded with lesser offensive talent and confined to greater defensive responsibilities.

Guy Carbonneau is a definite HHOFer while Patrice Bergeron is a possibility. Hopefully his defense and ES offense improves to Guy Carbonneau levels.
Not playing on the PP is a sign he wasn't that great offensively. It's not like Pat Burns ever said Doug Gilmour couldn't have a defensive role and play on the PP.

At his best, Carbonneau never was close to the team scoring leader (I believe 10 ES points back of Naslund in 89 is his best), barely cracked the top 100 in points (T93 in 1989, T99 in 1986) and I don't think he ever made the top 100 in PPG. In spite of Boston rolling lines and not giving him first line minutes, Bergeron has managed to beat Carbonneau in every one of those regards.

Furthermore, Bergeron was possibly the best player on a Cup finalist. I don't think Carbonneau was ever a Conn Smythe contender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Still thinks like a 60+ goal scorer, able to ameliorate, neuter the the best the opposition can throw at him including Gretzky & Lemieux. The best of his generation over 20yrs. I mean c'mon here. Really not even debatable.
In reality both Gretzky and Lemieux were around 2 PPG against the Habs, when Carbo played, during 88-89 to 91-92 (his Selke era). So if by "neuter" you mean "held to their usual scoring levels that only Gretzky and Lemieux have ever achieved" then sure. I hate to see the verb used for Crosby vs the Bruins.

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