View Single Post
Old
07-29-2013, 06:15 PM
  #310
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Relevance?
Umm... because you can't assign a player a value and offer him a contract in the future?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Top scorer? Well he was their 1st/2nd line centre for the 6 years he's been playing and his higher scoring cohorts are for the most part, younger than he is, they've all had more points and the only time Gagner came close to scoring 50 points was his first year when he had 49. Since then, he's barely putting up 40+. Arguing he's been one of the "top" scorers when he's never put up more than 50 while getting top line minutes is a ridiculous argument at best.
Ridiculous? I'm not the one pretending that he wasn't the 2nd highest scorer on that team with "higher scoring cohorts" 2 of the last 4 years, and was 3rd in another. How is that NOT "a top scorer on the team"? Just... wow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
He's getting top 6 minutes as a top 6 forward should. Again, the numbers show that by your own admission.
And producing as well or better than the other top 6 "higher scoring cohorts" on his team. In any other thread involving the value of legitimate top 6 scoring forwards, the value almost universally gravitates to the $4-5 million range. Gagne is one, imo, while DD isn't, again, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
First off, he's not. The fact you hold on to this misguided notion that he's performing at a top level talent clip is ludacris. AGAIN, he's averaging 44 points per season! How in any world is this producing at a high level?
Ludacris?! Well I better just Roll Out with my evaluation of the level Gagner is starting to play at, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
To compare him to Hall and RNH or even Yakopov shows how misinformed you are. Hall and RNH have already scored 50+ points, Yakopov led the team in scoring in his first season and all 3 are younger than Gagner and project MUCH higher than Gagner did and HAS performed so far. I can't believe you just made that comparison. Lol.

30 of 30 GM, scouts, coaches, players etc. will take Hall & RNG over Gagner, 10 times out of 10, every time, twice on Sunday and on their birthday. This isn't even a debate point. The fact you're trying to make it one shows you have no leg to stand on in your argument. Again, I can't believe you're bringing Hall and RNH into this debate... if you want to call it that.
Sigh... it's commentary on what percentage of the cap he's "worth" relative to the production from him vs his peers. I even go on to state that there were no player comparisons involved, but carry on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
For offensive players, production = worth. These are not mutually exclusive. They literally use direct comparisons while negotiating contracts. As for some of the intangibles, yes, they also get factored in to some extent, but they're not the bulk of the contract. All the character in the world only gets you so far but teams pay for performance. Maybe that's something that you don't comprehend.
Fair amount of irony here, but if the Oilers put their money down on getting at least 4 years of 2012/13 Gagner (or his '07-'12 average, even), and you're suggesting that the Habs put their money down (deservedly?) on at least 4 years of 2011/12 Desharnais, who do you think is looking "better" so far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
If I knew you worked for the NSA I'd have been logged off. It's nice to know that random people in the world "know" what I do and don't do based on a chat board convo. It does fit your M.O. of righteous indignation’s.

Big ego much. I didn't know I was talking to a hockey savant. Again, for someone who watches as much hockey as you say you do, you definitely make some silly arguments and counter points.
Well, now you know. You should have known long ago, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
So the crux of your rant is this? Has it occurred to you that you've put up zero argument to this point that is based on actual numbers? All you do is bring up abstract comments about Gagner being one of the top on his last place team in scoring but you bring no evidence to support you argument for his exorbitant salary.
So now he IS a top scorer, but his salary is "exorbitant"... Projected through 2015-16? I don't think so, but the Oilers have definitely invested at least a few $100K more than I would have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Speaking of spreadsheet data and rankings, if you actually take a look at one, you'll find that the average cost for a 2nd line centre, BEFORE the cap dropped was around $4M. Gagner was given $4.8M and DD was given $3.5. One made less than the market value of a 60+ point 2nd line centre and the other made $800k more than the market average and averages 44 points a year. Are there other intangibles, of course there are. Would I pay $1.8M more for Gagner than DD? Hells no.
Well how about the $1.3M that it actually is, every year through '15/16? And again, I'm NOT like you in resisting deviating too greatly from what the almighty spreadsheet says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I didn't know you'd take my comment so to heart. You must be a REALLY big Gagner fan or DD stole your wife because this reaction isn't very normal. Last I checked, we live in a free world where I made a comment on a message board about an "opinion." You are aware that everyone is entitled to one, right? Add insult to injury, it's not even like a made a bold statement here but your reaction has made it worth it regardless. Who would ever have thought that commenting that Gagner's contract makes DD's more palpable would be such a lightning rod for you. It seems that the majority of posters agree that even though most aren't big fans of DD, they also believe that Gagner's contract is a lot.
Hurrr... durrr...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
To further my point so as not to have it distorted by you or anyone else for the umpteenth time, I am not defending or even comparing DD to Gagner. Just made an off the cusp remark that Gagner's contract is so bad that it made DD's look not as bad.
And I just made an off the cusp response suggesting that's a misguided view of the situation. You pretend like you avoided the conversation and I just started throwing random 128 part messages your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Read above. You have an uncanny ability to distort my comments or just blatantly make them up to suit your talking points. The comparison is with the CONTRACTS, not the players. You can separate the 2 can't you. Here's an example as you seem to not grasp the concept. I like Patches, I like him more at $4.5 M, and I like him way less at $7 M. Do you see how the amount of money a player makes can distort your perception of that player?
I don't pigeon-hole or get tunnel vision when doing player value comparisons. I work "on the whole", and don't get discouraged when (inevitably) there are a few examples that stand against the greater trends that I notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
So to re-iterate as I know you'll distort this comment as well. DD at $3.5M for 4 years, not so happy. Seeing the Oilers over pay (yes, over pay as the $4M mark is a pretty good average) makes DD's contract more palatable. This is an OPINION, not up for debate. Its how I FEEL about the situation, you can't convince me otherwise.
Well, I'd say "cool opinion, bro", but I think it's obvious that I wouldn't necessarily mean it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I appreciate the compliment. It is quite the talent on my behalf to go back in time and alter Gagner's play and manipulate the statistics the NHL and the news agencies provide to the public that support my claim. All those abstract concepts I bring to the table like, stats, point production, plus minus, average salaries etc. are all based on Voodoo concepts like observation and statistics. Who needs those? You on the other hand use hard science to support your view. You've got your "gut" feelings and personal observation of "watching a lot of hockey" that support the "real" facts that you’re smarter and more informed than everyone else. It must be hard being so smart and having to deal with so many stupid people who don't support your infallible views.
Naw, it's not only easy, it's amusing. "Spices of life", and all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Did I also mention you have an amazing ability to read my mind
You didn't have to, obviously

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
and make statements for me that I've never made (yet, presumably) to support your argument. So not only do you "know" you watch, observe and understand hockey more than most and understand more in 5 minutes than most do in 5 years, you can also speak for me too!
Meanwhile, I didn't even know I had ever made or was going to make the bolded argument you just made for me. Truly an amazing ability you have.
Like I said earlier, just because there are plenty of noted exceptions doesn't mean I'm blind to the larger picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
AGAIN, never justified DD's contract. I made a remark that Gagner's is soo bad, it takes the edges of DD's bad contract.
Mmm... yeah, I think you have at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
You constantly speak of me as being a Strawman
Well, I didn't mention Pacioretty, or even imply player value projections (you were very clear that Gagner and Desharnais have been paid based on their past production, not what could/should be extrapolated over the coming term of the contracts they were awarded). So yeah... all you. See the following, lol:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
and the legions of Strawmen out there but you're the epitome of a Strawman. I am using the actual, literal, black and white facts to support my argument. You're the one ignoring the actual facts and using abstract points in a flaccid attempt to prove your point. This Patches argument is exactly what I'm talking about. Saying Patches isn't even a 20 min/night player to support your argument. So what!? Are you saying Patches isn't as good a player as Gagner? Are you saying Gagner deserves more money because he plays 20+ min/night? What's your point? This is what you do all the time. Above, in past comments you compared Gagner to Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yakopov etc. in some weird attempt to justify his contract when all those players have put up better numbers, been better players and are younger than Gagner. You attempt to distort, misrepresent and exaggerate your position as you don't really have one. Calling me and other "Strawmen" is one of the most blatant attempts at psychological projection I've seen on HF Boards and that's saying a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
How can you even argue the first point? It's an opinion on how I feel. It's not debatable.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, they aren't protected by the touchy-feely anti-response police from those who will point out that it may be misguided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Even if you wanted to debate it, you haven't provided ANY tangible proof of why I'm wrong in thinking that. If you're trying to convince me I'm wrong, why haven't you provided any reference to how much DD or Gagner should be making. The onus is on you to show me the err of my ways and not vice versa. You are the one arguing that I'm wrong while I'm defending my point. If you don't like my opinion that's fine. If you want to prove that I'm wrong, you better bring some facts and not your usual Stawman tactics as I see right through them.

Until you do, I stand firmly in my feeling that DD's contract is a little easier to swallow now than it was before but I still hope Eller renders him inconsequential this year and we end up trading DD. I'm not a big fan of his in case you didn't notice by the 15 million times I said it previously.
Okay, so just tell me how much Gagner "should" be paid based on both past performance/production AND projected worth over the coming 4 years. And then explain why Desharnais was awarded more money, term, or both than all of Moulson, Kulemin, Setoguchi, Kennedy, and Bolland. I'll grab an inflatable raft and wait for the "remember the points!" and "60 point player... once" deluge.

That would probably suffice as a starter, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

Ohashi_Jouzu is online now