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12-03-2013, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Cullen is the wrong center to provide solid defense, not that he's terrible at it but if you think he was some kind of two-way wiz you are wrong. He did vey well in Tampa but the rest of his career he was an offensive guy with holes in his game.
You are pretty much right about this, jkrx. When we were discussing centers pre-draft, BB showed me a list and asked which ones had any defense to them (his plan was always to draft Kessel). They were pretty much all devoid of defense except for Jackson, Cassels and Cullen. I did say he had "a bit" of a two-way game but maybe BB is a little over-enthusiastic about it too. As a scorer I don't remember him being a defensive whiz (I'd have to read some scouting reports to get a better idea of that), and even later on in his career (like Toronto, where I remember him best) he wasn't an "ideal" checker, more of a fading scorer who would take a lesser role and do what it took to win. Certainly more intangibles than most of these AAA scoring line centers, but that's not saying much, y'know?

His hart do not put him over any other goalie in the draft considering how he did after. His hart year is an outlier and more of a fluke than proof that he was elite. And let's not compare wins (a team stat) between a goalie for an expansion team and a goalie who played behind a definsive team. He's won 20 more games than he's lost so that don't really impress me. Theodore is a bad pick at this level.
I definitely do not agree that he is a bad pick at this level. However, BB does beat the "peak" drum a little too hard when it comes to theodore. Look at all the one-season wonders out there for goalies. There are still what, a dozen goalies left who were post-season all-stars and haven't been picked yet (and don't deserve to have been, either). Now, I don't count Theodore among them, but I am a "big picture" guy when it comes to goalies, and Theodore's weighted career average is one sv% point above the league average throughout his career. That's decent for this level considering it's an average that was maintained over 648 games. But what's scary about that is, if you just remove that one season, he was below the league average by a point and a half throughout his career. Again, that's still not bad, just being a contributor for that long makes one a decent AAA goalie and you can't make 2002 disappear in reality.

Basically he's not as good as BB thinks and definitely not as bad as you think.

You're right that comparing regular season win totals is pointless.

No, he only played with Mario when he could boost his offensive stats the most. On the PP. Lacking a defensive game this is not a good enough offensive player to give your team anything but troubles.
You're right about the negatives, and I did warn BB about this in advance but he was concerned about having checkers like Plekanec and Bonk on a second line and wanted the best offensive guy left.

As for the positives - his offensive skill - you probably are right that it's a bit overstated. We should have looked this up earlier to settle that part of your debate. Quinn had 273 points in Pittsburgh, and 120 of them were on the PP. 44% is extremely high.

You have my lines dominated because you avoid to talk about my best bottom-6ers. Ferguson is better than anything you have. Bonk is not a defensive wiz and was good-great defensively. Cooke is a goon with very little skill. Why would Simon be in the box most of the time? Did you even watch him play in his prime?
I don't see how Ferguson (good player who I like and originally introduced to these drafts) is better than Plekanec or Bonk - offensively or defensively. Bonk had a season 7th in Selke voting and although miscast on a first line, the Sens actually won a president's trophy with him on a first line. His even strength offense is through the roof for a guy on a lower line in the AAA.

production-wise, Cooke matches up fairly well to a guy like Darcy Tucker. I think your comment is unfair.

You're right about Simon. He actually took very few penalties that weren't for punching out another guy's lights.

Barnaby is most likely the best and most agitator in the NHL of all-time. To say he's less effective than Cooke makes me wonder if you've simply looking at stats and youtube videos to gather information about players.
I think that's hyperbole... there have been plenty of outstanding agitators. Tikkanen, Leswick, Lemieux, Tucker, Avery, Ott, Linseman, Verbeek, Subban, Burrows, Golonka, Clarke, Samuelsson, Butcher, Kasparaitis... and I'm trying to stick to names of players who could at least play in the AA or better. I think Barnaby and Cooke both fit in here. Sorting all these names out would be an interesting endeavor.

But as far as what BB said, I think it's fair. Cooke is similarly skilled in the areas Barnaby is, but is also a much better scorer and penalty killer. No?

A PPG season in WHA adds nothing to his resume really. Not to mention, he has basically no playoff experience.
What BB should have said was he averaged a point per game for 3 and a half WHA seasons. You must remember him; he was a very effective player and just 10% of his NHL points were scored on the PP too.

As far as the playoff experience goes, he does have 29 games... that's not much, I know. But he did go to the finals with Buffalo, and in that season earned 5 voting points for the Hart, so although it was a rogue vote, someone thought he did something special.

Watched him play many times. He was a fringe player who got to play on an expansion team and managed to score some goals in a poor division. What is he doing with Plekanec, he was nothing special defensively if you believe that.
I think Connelly is "adequate" for the AAA but he's nothing special. You're right about the expansion division piece. I was skeptical of him the first time VI took him 3 years ago, and after running the numbers, found that his totals did indeed warrant a closer look considering how much more his team scored against the expansion teams. It's something I've kind of "set aside", preferring to focus on his WHA scoring as a basis for drafting him. But you're right that his best NHL season isn't exactly a "face value" thing.

Orlando was arrested for draft evasion and some other crimes. He didn't leave the league because he wasn't good enough. He then enlisted to avoid prison. So it's kinda irritating see you spew garbage over something you have absolutely no clue about.
Although you're right, that's still lost time that cost him a lot of games that would have added to his career value. He shouldn't get a "free pass".

Besides Brown, Stelnov and Marshall trumps anything you have. Orlando and Zeidel will destroy your team as you have no physical elements to really counter them. Remember I have home team advantage so I get to decide whos going to match up with who throughout this series.
I think the proper counter-argument to this would have been that Orlando and Zeidel aren't very good players so let them try to catch and destroy BB's players.

As far as physicality to counter them, have you seen his 3rd and 4th line wingers and left side defensemen? This would not be a one-sided physical battle. I think your teams are about equal in toughness/physicality, but your toughness is highly concentrated in three players (Zeidel, Orlando, Simon) and they're three players who wouldn't be credible AAA players if not for their toughness.

You fought a good fight. Congrats on a good series.

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