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12-17-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
As for the Batman talk, I know the narrative very well but you can't just pick and choose and ascribe convenient plot arcs: I'm specifically referring to the very short, very abrupt arc of Two-Face: Dent has not had any sort of character growth in the film until he gets captured and burnt... then he comes to face the Joker and is (in a very contrived manner) convinced that his crusade for justice is worthless and chaos reigns... then he goes around all vigilante-like and ends up with a gun on Gordon's kids. I dunno it didn't really work for me but the tension was so palpable with the Joker stuff that I didn't mind it.
I don't think that the Joker in the TDK would work as well without Dent. The Joker is the reason that Dent falls, and thus Dent's fall, which is meaningful, makes the Joker a lot more impressive and terrifying. He breaks The White Knight, who is the hero that Batman thinks Gotham needs and that Rachel Dawes picks over Bruce Wayne. Dent is doing very well in life, he's risen to district attorney and he locks up the mob on RICO, and the Joker ends up breaking him, as Dent loses his girlfriend, half his face, and his vision for how the world works is refuted, all the good he's done is spoiled.

FYI, when the former Montreal Expos owners tried to sue MLB about ten years ago because they didn't like how they lost ownership, they tried to use RICO, which is the same legal structure Dent uses in TDK to lock up the mob. This makes Dent a more impressive individual then the former Montreal Expos ownership consortium, and the Joker brought him down .

[[For me, this is actually a small nuisance in TDK, every time the movie gets to that scene I'm pulled out of the film and think of The Expos.]]

Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
The characters are quite ordinary and the plot is a twist on a very regular story the twist is in the presentation and structure which, as I said, I know very well. I like this movie as well.
You're removing the best part of Memento and claiming that the rest is average. It's like saying that Gravity would be less good if it were an animated feature.

Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Absolutely disagree. Aside from a tendency to minimize CGI, Nolan has nothing on Kubrick. Kubrick's movies were subtle, whereas Nolan chews everything up and leaves it on the screen. The only way someone doesn't get the themes of a Nolan movie is if they were raised by an alcoholic chain-smoking mother under power-lines.
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, it's the war room !"

Nolan, like Kubrick, is sometimes subtle, and sometimes not.

Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
And what does "idea-based themes" even mean? Every theme is an idea. Nolan's film suffer from being wholly expository and, frankly, obvious. Not that it's a flaw at all, but you're favorably comparing him to a MASTER. Whereas Dr Strangelove is an allegory for sex and masculinity, and some would argue The Shining about anything from Indian genocide to the gold standard to the inherent unreliability of consciousness, no one has to think twice what the Prestige or Inception are about or have to say. Again: this isn't a bad thing but it's definitely shallower than Kubrick.
It was standard within traditional science fiction to use a lot of cardboard and generic characters in order to advance the plot and the ideas explored by the plot. The point was to explore interesting philosophical issues rather than interesting characters, and this is sometimes better achieved by using generic characters.

I don't see anything wrong with the fact Nolan's movies are very focused on a small set of themes. That's not a lack of subtlety, that's focus. It's mirrored by his characters, who are obsessive. It also reflects the fact we live in a different era where people have shorter attention spans. Kubrick's movies wouldn't sell in 2013, a lot of his scenes last a very long time before we see a "fade to black" with something else happening.

Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
His movies are like Big Macs.
Do you actually like big macs?

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