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02-01-2014, 06:18 PM
  #53
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Gretzky and Mario are ahead of him for sure. Is Orr? Serious question and I for one am a big Orr booster (heck, he's my avatar). You have to look at things here, he won two Art Rosses to Jagr's 5. Plus we never saw Orr after 28 years old. Jagr has done plenty since he was 28 years old. He won an Art Ross at 28 years old. Obviously Orr's overall game is what makes him a greater player, but if you only isolate the offense is Orr clearly ahead of him? Perhaps, but it isn't as big of a gap in my opinion as Mario or Gretzky.

Howe is another one I put over Jagr. He won 6 Art Rosses. Some by big margins just like Jagr. He was the all-time leading scorer until Gretzky passed him. Then it took until 2003-'04 before Messier finally did it. This is a record that trumps his peers as well. Who is closest to him in these terms from his own era? Beliveau? Then look at the difference from the offense alone. Big difference. Even Hull too. And of course Richard. So I would still put Howe ahead of Jagr offensively.

But there is a serious case for Jagr being the 5th best offensive player of all-time. I think you would have to do a close examination of him against Phil Esposito though. Both won 5 Art Rosses, both won 4 in a row. Both have years where they won them by significant margins (Esposito 1969, 1973, 1974) Jagr (1999, 2000 by projection). Their styles couldn't be more different, but their dominance is eerily similar.

The rest of the names I would say are Beliveau and Hull that can compete with him. Lafleur wasn't around long enough. Mikita and Richard both did one aspect of their offense better than the other I would say. Jagr was sort of like Beliveau where he did both very well amongst the greats.
i find it very hard not to have jagr even or ahead of orr. sure, orr only had two art rosses, but with all due respect to your namesake esposito, i give orr partial credit for at least five and maybe all six of espo's art rosses. even looking just at offense, orr was a next-level genius that i think was above jagr, or espo, or hull. to think that nobody sniffed orr's assist record until gretzky in '81 is amazing, and it's amazing even without accounting for the fact that orr was a defenseman. up to gretzky's rookie season, orr has four of the five highest single-season assist totals ever and contributed to five of the top six single-season goals totals ever.

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