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04-05-2014, 12:46 PM
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FlyingKostitsyn's Avatar
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Location: Quebec
Country: Australia
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post

Did I say they negated each other? No, I said they weren't the same argument. "Not being the same" doesn't automatically imply "negation"
So what does it matter then?

I know and knew both statements don't have the same meaning. I'm not sure what the problem is if they don't contradict each other?

Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
You throw out words like "certainly" with absolutely no supporting statements. Reverse causality remains a distinct possibility, and since you've previously argued that anyone advocating RC should "go back to their CEGEP textbooks" perhaps you should try addressing RC with more than your hand-waves and condescending remarks?
LOL yeah talk about condescending. Thats exactly how I would describe your behavior in this thread. More on that later...

Theory : Desharnais can support good goal scoring wingers and help their production.
The main supporting argument : good goal scorers like Cole and Pacioretty have achieved their most productive sequences while playing with Desharnais.

This is particularly notable for Cole who not only had his best goal scoring season playing on Desharnais' wing but also managed the most shot on goal with 240. Cole has played 14 years in the NHL, scored 30 goals twice and shot more than 200 only three times, his 35g 240s season with Desharnais stands out. I do not put his success that season entirely on Desharnais' shoulders but that year he managed to top seasons were he had Erik Staal as center!

As for Pacioretty, he's been in the top10 for shots on goal (top 11 actually in 2011-12 since he was tied with Tavares) ever since he started playing with Desharnais. He wasn't known as a ''shoot first'' player before, I argue that Desharnais helped him use his scoring instincts by ''feeding'' him the puck all the time. Pacioretty has mentionned himself several times how he loves playing with Desharnais. Unless you have lived in a cave the last few years you have certainly read these quotes (which I'll dig out if you don't remember them). It goes beyond the typical ''oh yeah we have good chemistry''.

Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
My point is that Plekanec and Eller aren't being played in a two-way capacity, they've been used far more heavily as defensive players. Is it really "more efficient" to play our BEST center in a reduced role?
I disagree that Plekanec's role is solely defensive, I think ''two-way'' is appropriate. He's excellent in that role however but not superior to Desharnais as a purely offensive player.

Now that you mention it I'll concede that Eller's role is more defensive but it varies quite a lot depending on his linemates. Therrien really needs to find stability on his second and third lines... Its also sad that Bourque happens to be such a useless player because he would really balance our offense if he could be a scoring threat.

Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
So given that the only information about my location you have is NYC, you reached the conclusion that I had lived in or received post-secondary education in Montreal?

Makes sense.
To be fair, I couldn't care less about were you're from. I don't know why you make such a big deal about the whole thing, just think of Cegep as college, much like high school is secondary school for us. Yes, countries have different structures in education but in the end its pretty much the same and since this is the Montreal Canadiens board you can expect Quebec specific references...

Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Spare me your moral outrage.

In spite of your self-proclaimed prodigious knowledge of geography, I'm not the one who condescendingly suggested a return to "CEGEP textbooks" as a retort to an argument I then failed to actually address with anything beyond a "cause I say so". You don't like having your intelligence questioned? Something about people who live in glass houses...
I'm not nearly as outraged as you appear to be it seems

Its a hockey board, chill out. I'll save my essay writing with multiple sources, citations, graphs & 50 annotated pages for when I write a Masters thesis - please spare me having to do that on HFboards. I don't think everyone here has the desire to write or even read page long essays about hockey opinion. You probably don't have the whole day to spend here and neither do I.

Oh and simply answering ''Reverse causality'' wasn't condescending? Please! Wonder why I mentioned college textbooks? You acted like an 18 year old who just learnt those words at school in a lecture about argumentative fallacies. Don't take it wrong but its slightly annoying to see people going around here screaming ''STRAWMAN!!'' and ''APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!'' all the time. Its an internet discussion board after all. In my forum reading&writing time I've found people calling out fallacies typically have little to add. Not that there is much to add to this beaten to death discussion mind you...

Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
It's a sufficient sample for what? That Desharnais has played near his entire career with good players? That he benefit from playing with top linemates?

Yeah, I agree.

Nothing in what you said establishes Desharnais as the independent variable.
The same argument could be used to claim that Pacioretty is only good because of Desharnais - After all Max was a pretty mediocre player before they were paired, some even called him a bust! Now of course we both know that statement would be false because we both see Pacioretty play and know he's big, strong, has a good shot, a good skillset and a head on his shoulders, which is why he has success. Hockey stats can only show so much, in the end we have to evaluate talent in a way that can't be 100% quantified.

Desharnais, for all the crap he gets for being small and weak is also a determined player that has gotten much better since he joined the league (on faceoffs, especially, it used to be a weakness and is now one of his strengths). His vision and passing in the offensive zone is perhaps the best on the team outside of Markov and maybe Subban, he thinks the game at another level and because of that plays well with other good players (and these players play well with him as a result). The reason he isn't a star is of course because of his size, and sadly he can't change that, but he fits a role.

Because that likely doesn't count as ''facts'' for you I'll throw some quick stats. If you want an exemple of Desharnais not playing with Pacioretty then look no further than his first NHL season.

Here are the most frequent lines Desharnais played with in 2010-11 :


You can consult the rest of the lines here

The ''best'' player he's been paired with any significant amount of time is, I suppose, Benoit Pouliot. Desharnais played with Pacioretty represents about 3% of his ice time (probably the odd shift or during line changes). That year Desharnais scored 22 points in 43 games as a rookie playing on the 4th line.

To put things in perspective, Desharnais that year had worse wingers than Eller currently has, less ice time and yet produced nearly as much (22pts vs 24) in 30 less games while being a rookie player. DD was 23yr old at the time. Eller is currently 24. Desharnais clawed his way to an NHL roster spot, all the way from the ECHL beating prejudice against both undrafted and small players, nothing was given to him. He plays with Pacioretty because he can and Max wants him as his center because he's comfortable with him.

Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
"200 NHL games and a full NHL season" vs. >10 games? Yeah, "not so big"
Hence why this is a minor argument compared with the Pacioretty&Cole samples, but it is reason enough to keep that line together. So far Vanek has played best with Desharnais&Pacioretty. Let me remind you we don't have 200 games to test lines before the playoffs. Plekanec and Vanek didn't seem to click and Galchenyuk&Eller haven't progressed enough this year to warrant a promotion to first line duty. Pacioretty-Desharnais-Vanek is on fire, they all see the ice at the same level and it would be unwise to break them up now.

Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 04-05-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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