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03-06-2007, 12:00 AM
Kris King's Ghost
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Looking back at my post I don't think I stated or implied that Jagr was the only, and most important problem, with the Rangers. He's just one of them.

The reason I chose to talk about Jagr is just because this happens to be a Jagr thread.
No worries at all there, I gotcha. For me though I just really don't think Jagr is even a blip. As funny as it sounds I don't think personalities are the problem here, I think it's the holes the team has.

To some extent, yeah, the media in New York are tough on their stars, but I don't think my wording was terribly suggestive of an all-out spat between the Jagr and Shanahan. Edge, you've even commented yourself that it's a pretty tense atmosphere and that's really all that I'm getting at.
You didn't word it like that at all, what I'm saying is that I think we have to be very careful that the media doesn't create a situation. Tension to me comes from not winning,

That, is where I believe you've largely misinterpreted my entire argument and line of thinking. I'm not focused on the problems with this team, because they're pretty bloody obvious: can't put the puck in the net, can't stop the puck from going in our net, and we don't know how to hold a lead (which is a byproduct of the first two and of the team culture that every person, not just Jagr contributes to).

Jagr is not THE problem, but he is a problem for this club going forward. And again, this is my point.
I understand what you mean, I just don't think Jagr is that big of a problem going forward. To me Jagr can be far more of a helper going forward than a problem. Is there a risk? You bet, but the thing is you're not going to get a player on Jagr's level without that drawback.

As much as we need players to build around, I don't think Jagr fits with what we're trying to build as a team. It's very much a "my way or highway" out there and you can see it with everyone he plays with. When he taps his stick he expects the puck and if he doesn't gets pissed to the point where sometimes he starts shouting at his own teammates. This isn't what is best for the future in terms of trying to bring players that are ready into the fold. It stifles everyone's creativity, it lessons their confidence, and as I said earlier it makes a team tremendously one-dimensional.
I think most of that stems more from the fact that Jagr feels the pressue of knowing that if he doesn't score, no one else will. If this team had scorers and were able to probably take some of that pressure off, I really just do not see it being an obstacle.

Easy, easy, easy. You know perfectly well that I've never been on the "lets ignore our problems" bandwagon. If you're going to make comments about others you'd best do it in a separate post.

Speaking of reading between the lines though, and perhaps I'm at fault for this too, but you might have done a better job of reading my post instead of generalizing.
Think you're reading too much into what I'm saying there, I'm not upset. But the reality is that what we're doing is psycho analyzing Jagr. From a performance standpoint he's scoring 100 points but when we discuss what he wants/needs/what players he needs around him I think we are reading too much between the lines.

I'm not saying we build around Jagr. Quite frankly I don't think we should be building around any one player. Not Shanny, certainly not Jagr, and not anybody.

I'd rather have guys in the dressing room that can help build a team, rather than guys in the dressing room that we're forced to build around.
Thing is you always have someone you end up building around, even if you didn't deliberatly go with the mindset of building around him. I don't think the Rangers are forced to get players Jagr wants and I think that's been seen in their moves.

An obviously unhealthy Jagr is still scoring at a 100 point pace so for all the talk about having to do things a certain way the addition of guys like Avery and Shanahan, etc. really hasn't been the cause of any decline.

So basically, my point is that for all the talk about what Jagr needs, he's going out and doing his thing and if the problems aren't based around a decline because of not giving into those needs that we're kind of debating a point that isn't really the issue.

But it is an issue of followers. For a guy like "Jagr" to be happy he's got to have people that will do what he says without question. If you refuse to play the way he wishes while you're playing with him he gets angry, shows you up with a look or shake of the head (I know you've seen it), and that is only deconstructive for a hockey club.
Maybe so but I wonder how much of that is do to the team's struggles and the pressure he feels from knowing he HAS to score or else the team can't.

I honestly think it has less to do with what Jagr needs to be happy and more to do with the lack of scoring depth the team has. Will Jagr ever be the greatest captain ever? Probably not, but I really just do not see that as being a big problem.

Watch Marcel Hossa play. It's like watching a guy walking on egg shells. He's so happy to be on the first line he's doing his best to stay the **** out of Jagr's way, and feed him the puck EVERY opportunity he gets.

If Hossa represents the young player in any of the countless potential examples we might see in the next few years, is that what you really want him to be learning? As I said, it's stifling.
Well Hossa is finally starting to get his act together as well so if it takes him walking on eggshells for now to learn than so be it. He's getting Jagr the puck and Jagr is setting him to score, I see little wrong with that. Hossa really isn't going to generate it on his own so if that's what it takes to get Hossa to be effective than so be it.

The thing is different players need different things to succeed. Another young player might need an approach Shanahan will take, someone like Hossa is playing the best hockey of his career with Jagr and the eggshells approach.

Once again I feel like we're trying to come up with a theory that the numbers simply don't back up. We can theorize that young players shouldn't be brought up this way and that Hossa is being stifled but when all is said and done he's playing the best hockey of his career.

We can say that Jagr needs certain things to be happy, but when all is said and done he seems more frustrated with the lack of scoring depth on the team, not necessarily that the team isn't just his buddies. On top of that the only thing seeming to stop him from more points is his shoulder, not his motivation.

The point isn't to trade him and try to get something for him, really. I'm not so much caught up in the package as I am caught up in just getting him off the team. That, I believe, is going to allow us to move forward a lot more quickly than keeping him here to bridge the gap, which will ultimately continue on for longer than most of us would like. You follow me here? This is another point I want to emphasize, and I'm sure you know what I mean.
I got ya the first time, I just don't agree with it. I don't think Jagr is hindering this team. I also am not a fan of getting him off the team for a package to move forward. I don't see what is exactly being hindered here? The team's problem isn't that it can't move forward, it's that it can't score. Even if Jagr was gone, the kids we have aren't going to be playing with him because their lower end forward.

I have no illusions that Jagr is god's gift to the captaincy but even if I erase him from the picture the only thing that changes is that this team can't score at all and Henrik Lundqvist starts losing him mind with a 2-1, 3-2 decisions.

I don't disagree that those are things that would help this team. However, getting rid of Jagr might get us further in terms of long term outlooks and that's what I'm concentrating on
I don't really see it E.

I see a team that has bottom 6 forward prospects and good goalie prospect and good defensive prospects. I don't think Jagr is so adversly influecing of effecting this team in the locker room that it can't intergrate those pieces and build a team.

I guess I'm just not really seeing the problems stemming from Jagr being big problems.

When we watch this team, what we see are certain problems that would not be any better if Jagr weren't on the team. In other words for what this team needs to do, Jagr to me is not of consequence to doing them.

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