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Pitkanen inks deal with Oilers

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Old
07-25-2007, 02:10 AM
  #176
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STOP!

It's amazing how many turns this thread has taken.

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07-25-2007, 05:29 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Um, Jester, far be it from me to argue with you...but...by all accounts up here, Gomez did not even meet with the Devils. If you can prove otherwise, by all means, please do so. But from everything I've read and heard, he didn't even speak with Lou. Mind you, I was vacationing around this time, so I may have missed something.

Again, I think you are underestimating Mike Richards. And again, as much as I love him, if he doesn't want to be here, thinks the grass is greener on the other side, then he is welcome to leave as well.

And PS-you are soooooo getting a white unicorn with a lavender horn from me some day.
The Devils were not going to be paying Gomez that price... Gomez knew it. Lou knew it. The meeting would have been pointless if it did happen... without knowing if it did or did not. Gomez also apparently wanted to play in a different system, so that's serving his interests as well... don't think Lou was going to change the team for him.

Meeting -
Lou: Scott we're willing to offer you a bit under 6 million.
Scott: Thanks for the talk Lou.

As of now, they're at 37M with 17 players signed... and Parise still floating off of a 30 goal second season. I'm sure at some point Gomez had made it clear since last season that he wanted to be paid market value, and that meant the meeting was moot. Again, it's a business... they don't have to, or need to have pointless meetings to salve the feelings of fans who don't understand that. Both parties had more important things to do with their time.

Underestimating him? His career could end... tomorrow. If you were advising Mike Richards and someone came to him with an offer that was millions of dollars of guaranteed cash in a profession that is full of lack of guarantees with injury, etc. and he said, but my heart is in Philadelphia... you wouldn't advise him to take the money? It's idiotic on these players parts not to take that offer when it comes to them... They are literally one play away from having their entire career and all the potential earnings they could receive taken away.

You're judging the players for making that decision negatively. I'm not. It's the obvious and rational choice... when you're one play away from going from million dollar a year career to coaching pee-wee hockey, you can't really screw around too much when it comes to the finances. It's why college athletes should almost always come out early if they're a top prospect... it could end tomorrow. And while you clearly wish these guys were making more decisions based on emotional ties, the vast weight of evidence proves otherwise... and that's not a criticism of these guys, it's simply acknowledging that these guys aren't clueless and reckless with their lives financially.


Last edited by Jester: 07-25-2007 at 05:40 AM.
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07-25-2007, 05:30 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
Bullocks. Richards is fast enough where Crosby can't blow around him in typical pylon fashion.
well, then lets see it... because Crosby has been ripping us a new one.

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07-25-2007, 08:22 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Larry, the only person I've heard refer to Richie as the "next Clarke" is you. Your drama was unwarranted.
C'mon, lighten up, I was just having some fun...

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07-25-2007, 08:25 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Defense is way more about intelligence and positional play than speed or strength. Richards is coming along nicely in that department and hasn't shown anything to indicate he won't become a top defensive, shutdown center.
I agree, it's just that he isn't yet, so it's too early to even consider him as captain.

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07-25-2007, 08:31 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Um, Jester, far be it from me to argue with you...but...by all accounts up here, Gomez did not even meet with the Devils. If you can prove otherwise, by all means, please do so. But from everything I've read and heard, he didn't even speak with Lou. Mind you, I was vacationing around this time, so I may have missed something.

Again, I think you are underestimating Mike Richards. And again, as much as I love him, if he doesn't want to be here, thinks the grass is greener on the other side, then he is welcome to leave as well.
I remember Gomez quoted as saying he talked contract with Lou briefly after the season, then said he'd decided to wait and see what happened on July 1, since you only get one chance at free agency.

As far as Richards goes, I can see him saying this very thing next summer:

"I was really taken aback when Mr. Sutter called with his amazing offer sheet. I was expecting to sign with the Flyers but I guess they didn't feel they could match the offer the Flames made. I'm really excited to be playing in Canada again and look forward to playing in front of the great fans in Calgary's Sea of Red. I'm already working out and I can't wait for the season to begin."

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07-25-2007, 10:44 AM
  #182
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Jester, whether it's becaue I'm a veteran teacher or because my father was raised in absolute poverty, but managed to get himself a college education and spent the rest of his life preaching to us about the virtues of being educated, but I will never agree with a statement saying, "...it's why college athletes should come out early if they are a top prospect." As I tell my students repeatedly, EVERYTHING in the life can be taken away from you. You can lose all your money, all your property and yes, even your freedom. But no one can ever take your mind away from you.


EDIT: Michael Vick is currently the best example of this on the negative side. The boy is a gazillionaire, but that money has brought him nothing but trouble BECAUSE he is uneducated. Have you ever heard him speak? The dude can't even conjugate a verb properly.

On the flip side, I would look at Tiki Barber. Went out on his terms and had a gazillion job offers thrown his way BECAUSE he is educated. I seriously doubt he "needs" to work, but when you graduate from UVA with a 4.0 GPA, I'm guessing you think your mind would be wasted if you just spent your life coaching pee-wee football.


You will always believe that money is, or should be, the most important thing in this world. I will never believe that, so I think we should just end our little discussion now especially because I think the rest of the board is absolutely sick and tired of us.


Last edited by flyersfan97: 07-25-2007 at 10:48 AM. Reason: addendum
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07-25-2007, 11:21 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Jester, whether it's becaue I'm a veteran teacher or because my father was raised in absolute poverty, but managed to get himself a college education and spent the rest of his life preaching to us about the virtues of being educated, but I will never agree with a statement saying, "...it's why college athletes should come out early if they are a top prospect." As I tell my students repeatedly, EVERYTHING in the life can be taken away from you. You can lose all your money, all your property and yes, even your freedom. But no one can ever take your mind away from you.


EDIT: Michael Vick is currently the best example of this on the negative side. The boy is a gazillionaire, but that money has brought him nothing but trouble BECAUSE he is uneducated. Have you ever heard him speak? The dude can't even conjugate a verb properly.

On the flip side, I would look at Tiki Barber. Went out on his terms and had a gazillion job offers thrown his way BECAUSE he is educated. I seriously doubt he "needs" to work, but when you graduate from UVA with a 4.0 GPA, I'm guessing you think your mind would be wasted if you just spent your life coaching pee-wee football.


You will always believe that money is, or should be, the most important thing in this world. I will never believe that, so I think we should just end our little discussion now especially because I think the rest of the board is absolutely sick and tired of us.
Who said anything about not getting a degree? I'm getting a PhD, you think I don't support the concept of education? I said college athletes should come out, which means they give up their ability to play college athletics... not get a college degree. Brind'Amour got a degree while playing for the Flyers. Shaq got a degree after coming out... Vince Carter famously attended graduation the day of a NBA playoff game.

However, it's stupid to risk that money while maintaining your college athletic ability. Willis McGahee lost 10 million dollar on one play of collegiate football. His career was 'professional football player' and it almost went up in smoke in a second. That's a big fire to be playing with.

As far as Michael Vick... the man spent three years at one of the better engineering schools in the country. He's a pretty educated guy by any observable measurement... he was a college athlete who was going to be professional, the people i was talking about. They're ALL taking Golf 101... they shouldn't stick around to take Golf. Matt Leinart stuck around to take a dancing class... a decision that cost him a lot of cash, but i'm sure he was insured against an injury that would have cost him his career.

I would also note that an education doesn't necessarily stop someone from being an a**hat... just like the lack of one doesn't mean you will be... it simple means you read a bit more.

And here's why the money we're talking about is important. It's the money to put your family in a comfortable house and environment. It's the money that lets you take care of a family member if they develop a severe illness that isn't covered by insurance. While you may not believe the money is the most important thing, the money matters and these guys continually prove that they expect to be fairly compensated... no more, no less... just like everyone else. Risking giving up the ability to do the things I just mentioned - hell, they can give it to charity if they want - is a massive gamble just to give charity to rich guys that own your team.


Last edited by Jester: 07-25-2007 at 12:28 PM.
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07-25-2007, 12:01 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
well, then lets see it... because Crosby has been ripping us a new one.
5-Oct-06 Flyers 0 @ Pittsburgh Penguins 4 0 0 0 0 3 E 19:17 (Crosby 2pts)

28-Oct-06 Pittsburgh Penguins 8 @ Flyers 2 0 1 1 0 4 -2 18:32 (Crosby 6pts)

13-Nov-06 Flyers 2 @ Pittsburgh Penguins 3 0 1 1 0 2 E 21:11 (Crosby 2pts)

20-Nov-06 Pittsburgh Penguins 5 @ Flyers 3 0 0 0 0 1 -1 18:01 (Crosby 2pts)

8-Feb-07 Pittsburgh Penguins 5 @ Flyers 4 0 0 0 0 5 -1 16:52 (Crosby 0pts)

4-Mar-07 Flyers 3 @ Pittsburgh Penguins 4 0 1 1 2 2 E 15:36 (Crosby 0pts)

All things considered, it looks like he did a pretty good job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Jester, whether it's becaue I'm a veteran teacher or because my father was raised in absolute poverty, but managed to get himself a college education and spent the rest of his life preaching to us about the virtues of being educated, but I will never agree with a statement saying, "...it's why college athletes should come out early if they are a top prospect." As I tell my students repeatedly, EVERYTHING in the life can be taken away from you. You can lose all your money, all your property and yes, even your freedom. But no one can ever take your mind away from you.
They should bow out early if they're top prospects. They have a gift, and a shot at a huge payday. If everything works out, they have a career set in place making millions of dollars a year. If it doesn't, they take that meager 800K and return to school to finish their education with a clean slate in place. It's a win win situation.

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07-25-2007, 12:26 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
5-Oct-06 Flyers 0 @ Pittsburgh Penguins 4 0 0 0 0 3 E 19:17 (Crosby 2pts)

28-Oct-06 Pittsburgh Penguins 8 @ Flyers 2 0 1 1 0 4 -2 18:32 (Crosby 6pts)

13-Nov-06 Flyers 2 @ Pittsburgh Penguins 3 0 1 1 0 2 E 21:11 (Crosby 2pts)

20-Nov-06 Pittsburgh Penguins 5 @ Flyers 3 0 0 0 0 1 -1 18:01 (Crosby 2pts)

8-Feb-07 Pittsburgh Penguins 5 @ Flyers 4 0 0 0 0 5 -1 16:52 (Crosby 0pts)

4-Mar-07 Flyers 3 @ Pittsburgh Penguins 4 0 1 1 2 2 E 15:36 (Crosby 0pts)

All things considered, it looks like he did a pretty good job.
the man would have had a 164 point season if he played against us for an entire season... he may very well have his highest point total against the Flyers. i'm not saying Richards isn't a good defensive player, because he's a very good defensive player. however, he has some issues when it comes to being a 'shutdown' center... he's not big enough to manhandle guys, nor is he fast enough to beat them on that side.

Richards operates from being a very savvy player... however, savvy doesn't always win when you're playing the best in the world.

dandelion and burdock drink is kinda odd tasting, for the record.

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07-25-2007, 01:10 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
the man would have had a 164 point season if he played against us for an entire season... he may very well have his highest point total against the Flyers. i'm not saying Richards isn't a good defensive player, because he's a very good defensive player. however, he has some issues when it comes to being a 'shutdown' center... he's not big enough to manhandle guys, nor is he fast enough to beat them on that side.

Richards operates from being a very savvy player... however, savvy doesn't always win when you're playing the best in the world.

dandelion and burdock drink is kinda odd tasting, for the record.
Crosby had 7 goals and 9 assists for 16 points in 8 games against the Flyers, and 3 goals and 14 assists for 17 points against the Isles. Not the most points, but close enough.
Hopefully that changes this season against the Flyers.

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07-25-2007, 01:13 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by ClarkeIsGoneDotCom View Post
Crosby had 7 goals and 9 assists for 16 points in 8 games against the Flyers, and 3 goals and 14 assists for 17 points against the Isles. Not the most points, but close enough.
Hopefully that changes this season against the Flyers.
he had 14 pts against the Isles and us as a rookie... wow, he really likes beating the piss out of us.

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07-25-2007, 02:12 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
the man would have had a 164 point season if he played against us for an entire season... he may very well have his highest point total against the Flyers. i'm not saying Richards isn't a good defensive player, because he's a very good defensive player. however, he has some issues when it comes to being a 'shutdown' center... he's not big enough to manhandle guys, nor is he fast enough to beat them on that side.

Richards operates from being a very savvy player... however, savvy doesn't always win when you're playing the best in the world.

dandelion and burdock drink is kinda odd tasting, for the record.
Crosby in his one game last year against Mike Richards playing for a competent team: 0 points. I know, I know, small sample size and all that, but the point is when the team wasn't full of guys barely capable of AHL play they held Crosby scoreless (until the shootout anyway).

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07-25-2007, 09:24 PM
  #189
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he'll put up points if nothing else... even if he improves not one iota defensively, he's a 50+ a year player offensively. hopefully Holmgren can land someone in the next draft or two that can rise into somewhere close to that level... as it's such a key element to a team. Timonen is a good player, but he's not quite in that class of offensive guy... more of a very solid offensive player... a la Rico, which is alright if you have a few others who can take some of the load off, but Timonen has a heavy weight to pull back there this season.
I think Timonen gives you the points Pitkanen was providing (at current level) only with better defensive play and better powerplay performance. People are posting things that imply that Joni was a legit PP QB. I don't think he showed much ability in this area this past season...Forsberg was the primary PP QB with Upshall spotting in his place after they swapped teams...the PP was lost without either of them playing (when Upshall was injured).

Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that I think Timonen makes up for losing Joni (at least as far as production for the next year or two)... but I am upset and worried because we had a chance to really jump-start the team with BOTH Joni and Kimmo. With both of them our attack goes to the next level. With only one, we remain out of balance and thin as far as defensemen who are proven producers.

With only one legit guy, it's easy for teams to key on that player and gum up the works (like some teams started to figure out against Joni as I saw they began to head him off along those left boards). I am worried that teams will key on Timonen and inconsistency will be the result. Sure it may be less of a concern if Picard, Coburn and/or Kukkonen bust out offensively, but it would be foolish to count on those very green players. We had a chance to deploy one of the more dangerous defensive corps in the league with Timo and Pits leading the attack, but by moving Pits, we're back to more or less a single player we will be depending on to make things happen from the back end.

I really hope not, but we may just find (as I have been theorizing all along) that it wasn't (only) Joni's young age and/or lack of smarts that was making him look/play bad, but the lack of depth and support to help him out in carrying the offensive burden (from the back end). Let's just hope Kimmo really is Superman and Picard is the next Desjardins.

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07-26-2007, 04:37 AM
  #190
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that's what annoys me as well... we would have had two guys back there that could really help offensively, and that takes a ton of pressure off of the two of them, as well as the forwards as a unit. Timonen is an adequate replacement if you wanted to just purely switch them and then some - he's a far better player at this point in their respective careers. however, the combination of Timonen + Pitkanen (or someone else) is clearly much more ideal.

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07-29-2007, 12:29 AM
  #191
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Jester et.al.,

Read these quotes and tell me if you still think "loyalty" meant nothing to these men. I will not argue with you, no matter what conclusion you draw from them, their quotes speak for themselves: (I'm fairly certain you'll hear a similar sentiment from their speeches tomorrow-if you choose to watch):

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb


Together the quartet of Ripken, Gwynn, Matthews and Hummel represents a rarity. Each of them spent his entire career playing for or covering the same ballclub.

"When I look back on it, I think part of the reaction that we're getting from the fans is the fact that we played on one team," Gwynn said.

He spent 20 years with the Padres; Ripken 21 years with the Orioles. Each retired after the 2001 season and was elected by the BBWAA in his first year of eligibility.

"I'm a Padre and I always will be and I'm pretty proud of the fact that everything I did, I did in one uniform," Gwynn said. "It's pretty awesome to see that on your bubble-gum card and it's going to be awesome to see that on your plaque."

Probably a lot better on the plaque, one of 280 in the Hall.

"I was lucky that I was drafted by the team I wanted to be drafted by," Ripken said. "And then I was even luckier to make it through the system and stay with the big-league team. It's not always easy because the nature of the sport is change."


"The feedback I'm getting is that we did things the right way. We played on one team. And we were pretty good players, too," Gwynn said.

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07-29-2007, 10:30 AM
  #192
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Jester et.al.,

Read these quotes and tell me if you still think "loyalty" meant nothing to these men. I will not argue with you, no matter what conclusion you draw from them, their quotes speak for themselves: (I'm fairly certain you'll hear a similar sentiment from their speeches tomorrow-if you choose to watch):

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb


Together the quartet of Ripken, Gwynn, Matthews and Hummel represents a rarity. Each of them spent his entire career playing for or covering the same ballclub.

"When I look back on it, I think part of the reaction that we're getting from the fans is the fact that we played on one team," Gwynn said.

He spent 20 years with the Padres; Ripken 21 years with the Orioles. Each retired after the 2001 season and was elected by the BBWAA in his first year of eligibility.

"I'm a Padre and I always will be and I'm pretty proud of the fact that everything I did, I did in one uniform," Gwynn said. "It's pretty awesome to see that on your bubble-gum card and it's going to be awesome to see that on your plaque."

Probably a lot better on the plaque, one of 280 in the Hall.

"I was lucky that I was drafted by the team I wanted to be drafted by," Ripken said. "And then I was even luckier to make it through the system and stay with the big-league team. It's not always easy because the nature of the sport is change."


"The feedback I'm getting is that we did things the right way. We played on one team. And we were pretty good players, too," Gwynn said.
once again.

they started their career in completely different era than modern athletes... a decade before the 90s, which is when the salary structure of sports changed dramatically... there's a reason in history why we don't make direct comparisons between the 15th c., the 18th c., and the 20th c... THEY ARE DIFFERENT. if they started their career in 1990 as opposed to 1980, they would have had a completely different set of decisions to make... they would have been in a position to get a huge contract prior to having families to uproot.

not only that... they're a minority amongst athletes on top of that.

not only that, no one has denied that players make decisions based on the franchise they're with, and the place where they are... however, my point to you is that is completely and utterly acknowledged by any micro-economic theory... it's called "utility" and thus this remains a purely economic discussion...

in any event, you can bank on 'loyalty' all you want... but you're essentially the ostrich with your head in the sand, as you're not paying attention to what happens EVERY offseason, in EVERY sport with players signing here, there, and everywhere. what you should be pointing to is Parise turning down an offer sheet... instead you're talking about retired baseball players 20 years older than the players under discussion here... aka, people with almost ZERO relation to one another. different generation, different economics, and different era of sports.

every year we see players moving... no one on this roster is any different... they expect fair deals, and they will find them elsewhere if they aren't offered here... they will accept an offer sheet most likely if it's put in front of them. doesn't make them selfish, or unloyal... it means that they're rational human beings.

it's simply fascinating to compare two 21 y/o kids from Ontario playing hockey in Philadelphia (or name any other city and remote geographic connection) to a guy playing for his hometown team... and a guy from LA playing down the road in SD. it's fine, though, put your faith in 'loyalty'. i'll continue to watch players sign the best offer EVERY year (in every sport, no less).

reference: Penner, Dustin.

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