HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

Should/Will NYR retire Adam Graves #9 ?

View Poll Results: Should the Rangers RETIRE #9 ?
Yes, retire #9 116 48.33%
No, don't retire #9 100 41.67%
I don't know 24 10.00%
Voters: 240. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-30-2007, 07:43 PM
  #76
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Two points:

1. You are using career numbers which also rewards longevity as much as ability. Is it your contention that someone must spend their entire career or at least the bulk of their career in a Rangers jersey to be considered worthy? I can see your point on that. Under that scenario, however, Messier (mostly an Oiler) might not deserve his jersey flying from the rafters (Not something I believe).

2. Leetch never had to play at the same time as Orr. If he had he probably would not have won any of the awards you mentioned. It is not Park's fault that he played with a guy who was light years better than any other Dman that played at the same time as Leetch.

By the way, did you see Park in the 70's? Just curious.
1) I believe that Leetch is more worthy than Messier when it comes to having his number retired.

2) I understand that Leetch never had to play at the same time as Orr. But that's irrelevant to conversation.

I was born in 75 so I saw the end of Park's career. But I've read a lot about him. Again, I'm not disparaging Park's career. I'm saying that when you look at who had the better Ranger career, he doesn't come close the Leetch.

__________________

Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 07-30-2007 at 07:49 PM.
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
07-30-2007, 08:24 PM
  #77
AJ1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,812
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to AJ1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post

It is not Park's fault that he played with a guy who was light years better than any other Dman that played at the same time as Leetch.
I don't know. Orr was pretty much done after 75-76. Park was still only 27 or 28 at that point, yet he never won the Norris while Robinson, Potvin and Carlyle did over the next 6 seasons. So Park didn't have much of an opportunity to win a Norris while with the Rangers but after 75 Orr was no longer in the picture.

Also, Leetch's competition for the Norris was pretty darn good with guys like Bourque, Coffey, Chelios all in their primes.

I also think that it is significant that Leetch spent the majority of his career with the Rangers while Park spent about half.

AJ1982 is offline  
Old
07-30-2007, 09:25 PM
  #78
The Thomas J.*
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 18,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
1) I believe that Leetch is more worthy than Messier when it comes to having his number retired.

2) I understand that Leetch never had to play at the same time as Orr. But that's irrelevant to conversation.

I was born in 75 so I saw the end of Park's career. But I've read a lot about him. Again, I'm not disparaging Park's career. I'm saying that when you look at who had the better Ranger career, he doesn't come close the Leetch.
Wow, those are bold statements, I disagree with it, Leetch would never have been as complete a player he wound up becoming if Messier & keenan don't infulence him.

& YES RETIRE NO#9 ADAM GRAVES!

The Thomas J.* is offline  
Old
07-30-2007, 09:39 PM
  #79
chip chipperson*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ1982 View Post
I don't know. Orr was pretty much done after 75-76. Park was still only 27 or 28 at that point, yet he never won the Norris while Robinson, Potvin and Carlyle did over the next 6 seasons. So Park didn't have much of an opportunity to win a Norris while with the Rangers but after 75 Orr was no longer in the picture.

Also, Leetch's competition for the Norris was pretty darn good with guys like Bourque, Coffey, Chelios all in their primes.

I also think that it is significant that Leetch spent the majority of his career with the Rangers while Park spent about half.
then look at it this way, after 92 leetchs high in points was 85, 79, 79,78 and then he only registerd 26 points in 2000, 30 in 03 and 36 in 04 and barely broke 50 in all the rest. 9 full seasons after 94 he missed 88 games. and after his career year in 92 he played only 30 games. my point to all this is that park and leetch are at worst comparable. leetch will have a great year and then get an ankle injury sidelining him for half the season. imo leetch's number goes up without question, but if were going to talk about players that got passed over from the past you have to look at park. i know i said i was done arguing, but i couldn't help myself.

chip chipperson* is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 06:39 AM
  #80
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ1982 View Post
I don't know. Orr was pretty much done after 75-76. Park was still only 27 or 28 at that point, yet he never won the Norris while Robinson, Potvin and Carlyle did over the next 6 seasons. So Park didn't have much of an opportunity to win a Norris while with the Rangers but after 75 Orr was no longer in the picture.

Also, Leetch's competition for the Norris was pretty darn good with guys like Bourque, Coffey, Chelios all in their primes.

I also think that it is significant that Leetch spent the majority of his career with the Rangers while Park spent about half.
I believe that Park came in 2nd to Potvin twice. I hated Potvin but the guy was great and played with some great teams and Park had already had a few knee injuries by then.

Bourque and Chelios were excellent defensemen. Orr was light years better than both.

The one point I can't argue is longevity in the Rangers sweater.

chosen is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 06:46 AM
  #81
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I understand that Leetch never had to play at the same time as Orr. But that's irrelevant to conversation.
It became relevant when you raised the awards won by Leetch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I was born in 75 so I saw the end of Park's career. But I've read a lot about him. Again, I'm not disparaging Park's career. I'm saying that when you look at who had the better Ranger career, he doesn't come close the Leetch.
With all due respect, you never even saw Park as a Ranger so I'd suggest that you have no idea how dominant and important to the team he was. The numbers don't tell the whole story with him. He was by far the most valuable skater on a team that came close to winning two Cups.

chosen is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 08:27 AM
  #82
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,252
vCash: 500
Chosen...

I don't think anybody said this: "someone must spend their entire career or at least the bulk of their career in a Rangers jersey to be considered worthy". However, it is something that should be considered.

One problem with these arguments is that noone sitting here saying that Park should not have had his jersey hung to the rafters. I personally did not see him as a Ranger (I did, but at 5/6 years old, I didn't know squat), but I'll trust the opinion of those who have. I cannot tell you what criteria the Rangers organization uses for determining if a jersey shall hang, although it must be pretty stringent considering the few that are hanging. I think we all believe that a guy who played 17 seasons as a Ranger, played in over 1,000 games and amassed nearly a point-per-game as a defenseman over that time, who served as their captain, who won a Conn Smythe as a Ranger, who is the Rangers' all time leading point-getter in the playoffs (of course you need to make the playoffs and play in many games, but I think Leetch has very good playoff stats even considering the number of games in which he played - a point per playoff game for a defenseman - not too shabby). And let's forget about everything else. He was the face of the Rangers for such a long time it - and produced as a Ranger - which makes it hard to honor.

Fletch is online now  
Old
07-31-2007, 08:30 AM
  #83
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I don't think anybody said this: "someone must spend their entire career or at least the bulk of their career in a Rangers jersey to be considered worthy". However, it is something that should be considered.

One problem with these arguments is that noone sitting here saying that Park should not have had his jersey hung to the rafters. I personally did not see him as a Ranger (I did, but at 5/6 years old, I didn't know squat), but I'll trust the opinion of those who have. I cannot tell you what criteria the Rangers organization uses for determining if a jersey shall hang, although it must be pretty stringent considering the few that are hanging. I think we all believe that a guy who played 17 seasons as a Ranger, played in over 1,000 games and amassed nearly a point-per-game as a defenseman over that time, who served as their captain, who won a Conn Smythe as a Ranger, who is the Rangers' all time leading point-getter in the playoffs (of course you need to make the playoffs and play in many games, but I think Leetch has very good playoff stats even considering the number of games in which he played - a point per playoff game for a defenseman - not too shabby). And let's forget about everything else. He was the face of the Rangers for such a long time it - and produced as a Ranger - which makes it hard to honor.
That's exactly it. Thanks, Fletch. Well said.

Somehow being Pro-Leetch has been twisted around to being Anti-Park.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 08:36 AM
  #84
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
It became relevant when you raised the awards won by Leetch.
Well one guy won the award and one didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
With all due respect, you never even saw Park as a Ranger so I'd suggest that you have no idea how dominant and important to the team he was.
And with all due respect, I'm not sure why you need to quote for Legends of Hockey if you saw him play. Use your own words. Tell us what you saw.

So he was dominant is less than half as many games as Leetch played for this franchise. Fine. I've seen Brian Leetch dominate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The numbers don't tell the whole story with him.
The same can be said about Leetch. Leetch was an underrated defensive player. A very good penalty killer and he could control the pace of the game with the puck on his stick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
He was by far the most valuable skater on a team that came close to winning two Cups.
And Leetch was deemed to be the most valuable player on a Ranger team that won the Cup.

But all that is just nitpicking. It's not an either or thing. They were both great players. Leetch's Ranger career is just better.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 10:27 AM
  #85
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I don't think anybody said this: "someone must spend their entire career or at least the bulk of their career in a Rangers jersey to be considered worthy". However, it is something that should be considered.

One problem with these arguments is that noone sitting here saying that Park should not have had his jersey hung to the rafters. I personally did not see him as a Ranger (I did, but at 5/6 years old, I didn't know squat), but I'll trust the opinion of those who have. I cannot tell you what criteria the Rangers organization uses for determining if a jersey shall hang, although it must be pretty stringent considering the few that are hanging. I think we all believe that a guy who played 17 seasons as a Ranger, played in over 1,000 games and amassed nearly a point-per-game as a defenseman over that time, who served as their captain, who won a Conn Smythe as a Ranger, who is the Rangers' all time leading point-getter in the playoffs (of course you need to make the playoffs and play in many games, but I think Leetch has very good playoff stats even considering the number of games in which he played - a point per playoff game for a defenseman - not too shabby). And let's forget about everything else. He was the face of the Rangers for such a long time it - and produced as a Ranger - which makes it hard to honor.
I have never questioned the fact that Leetch is 100% deserving of the honor. He does deserve it.

Graves, on the other hand, qualifies under no known criteria. The only reason that anyone could possibly believe otherwise is if they became hockey fans in the early 90's and don't understand how few have gotten the honor.

chosen is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 10:28 AM
  #86
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I have never questioned the fact that Leetch is 100% deserving of the honor. He does deserve it.

Graves, on the other hand, qualifies under no known criteria. The only reason that anyone could possibly believe otherwise is if they became hockey fans in the early 90's and don't understand how few have gotten the honor.
I completely agree with all of what you just said.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 10:29 AM
  #87
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And with all due respect, I'm not sure why you need to quote for Legends of Hockey if you saw him play. Use your own words. Tell us what you saw.
With all due respect I have already done that in this thread.

chosen is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 04:19 PM
  #88
AJ1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,812
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to AJ1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
then look at it this way, after 92 leetchs high in points was 85, 79, 79,78 and then he only registerd 26 points in 2000, 30 in 03 and 36 in 04 and barely broke 50 in all the rest. 9 full seasons after 94 he missed 88 games. and after his career year in 92 he played only 30 games. my point to all this is that park and leetch are at worst comparable. leetch will have a great year and then get an ankle injury sidelining him for half the season. imo leetch's number goes up without question, but if were going to talk about players that got passed over from the past you have to look at park. i know i said i was done arguing, but i couldn't help myself.
I'm not arguing that Park and Leetch aren't comparable, I am simply questioning the idea that Park never had a chance to win the Norris but it was easy for Leetch.

As for the points after 92' argument, Leetch won the Norris with his 78 points in 96-97. That's not too shabby. Also, you have to consider that Leetch was playing for a non-playoff team after 97' and in a more defensive era. When considering that his 50 point seasons, and 79 pts in 00-01 look pretty darn good.

AJ1982 is offline  
Old
07-31-2007, 04:52 PM
  #89
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,252
vCash: 500
Thomas J....

who cares how Leetch became a solid all-around player. If he was, then that's a good thing. Everybody had influences in their life - Leetch had his, leanred from them and was better because of it. One note - Leetch was the rookie of the year in the NHL prior to Mess and Keenan, so his career was off to a decent start to his career.

Fletch is online now  
Old
07-31-2007, 06:10 PM
  #90
chip chipperson*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ1982 View Post
I'm not arguing that Park and Leetch aren't comparable, I am simply questioning the idea that Park never had a chance to win the Norris but it was easy for Leetch.

As for the points after 92' argument, Leetch won the Norris with his 78 points in 96-97. That's not too shabby. Also, you have to consider that Leetch was playing for a non-playoff team after 97' and in a more defensive era. When considering that his 50 point seasons, and 79 pts in 00-01 look pretty darn good.
with guys on the team like lindros, nedved, kovalev bure, fleury, anson carter, who are all 30 goal scorers, it was not a defensive era. leetch was the only good dman we hadunless you count malakov who only had a good +/-. and obvioulsy his 79 points look good, that would look good anywhere.

chip chipperson* is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 04:59 PM
  #91
AJ1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,812
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to AJ1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
with guys on the team like lindros, nedved, kovalev bure, fleury, anson carter, who are all 30 goal scorers, it was not a defensive era. leetch was the only good dman we hadunless you count malakov who only had a good +/-. and obvioulsy his 79 points look good, that would look good anywhere.
I don't know where you get the idea that 00-01 was not a part of the defensive trap era in hockey. Because we had talented players? Those talented players managed to miss the playoffs and Leetch outscored all of them (led the team in scoring that year). I don't understand your thinking or your point.

AJ1982 is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 05:05 PM
  #92
chip chipperson*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ1982 View Post
I don't know where you get the idea that 00-01 was not a part of the defensive trap era in hockey. Because we had talented players? Those talented players managed to miss the playoffs and Leetch outscored all of them (led the team in scoring that year). I don't understand your thinking or your point.
holy crap dude, way to bring the thread back. so now were talking about a defensive era in the whole nhl, not every team played the trap. wre done with this dude. its over

chip chipperson* is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 05:13 PM
  #93
AJ1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,812
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to AJ1982
???

I only log on here occasionally, takes time for me to get back to a thread. I thought I would respond now that I saw your comments.

I still don't get your point and, now, I don't understand the hostility either.

AJ1982 is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 05:18 PM
  #94
chip chipperson*
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ1982 View Post
???

I only log on here occasionally, takes time for me to get back to a thread. I thought I would respond now that I saw your comments.

I still don't get your point and, now, I don't understand the hostility either.
no hostility, i'm just done with this thread. its been dead for like a week.

chip chipperson* is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 06:23 PM
  #95
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,152
vCash: 500
Just came across this. shocked to find so many in agreement, Imo, honoring a journeyman like Graves while ingoring great Rangers like Cook, Boucher & Bathgate is very sad.

pappyline is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 06:27 PM
  #96
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Just came across this. shocked to find so many in agreement, Imo, honoring a journeyman like Graves while ingoring great Rangers like Cook, Boucher & Bathgate is very sad.
I wouldn't say he's a journeyman. He is a legit Ranger.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 06:35 PM
  #97
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I wouldn't say he's a journeyman. He is a legit Ranger.
Come on now, he is a very average player. I'n not even a Rangers fan but I could name a dozen or so more deserving players.

pappyline is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 06:37 PM
  #98
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Come on now, he is a very average player. I'n not even a Rangers fan but I could name a dozen or so more deserving players.
He was better than an average player.

I don't think they should retire his number. And I have said as much multiple times in this thread.

But it's not fair to say that he was an average player and a journeyman. It's just not true.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 08-02-2007 at 06:44 PM.
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 06:44 PM
  #99
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He was better than an average player.
and how many major awards has he won?

pappyline is offline  
Old
08-02-2007, 06:47 PM
  #100
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,801
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
and how many major awards has he won?
That's your measuring stick? Must be very few good players who have played this game.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.