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We should form an alliance with the Sabres...

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Old
07-29-2007, 10:47 AM
  #51
Fishy Scales
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
The situations are different in a way, in that Regier is the idiot for not letting Vanek go. 4 1st round draft picks is more valuable than any player not named Crosby, Ovechkin, or Phaneuf. Especially if Edmonton sucks, and gives you a chance at the Tavares sweepstakes.

The Penner offer is very close however. The salary is rough to accept and the compensation sucks. This is a far worse move. For those that say match at all costs, keep in mind that this is the deepest draft since '03 when we got Getzlaf and Perry, and that the pick could open up the possibility of one of: Stamkos, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Sauve
Please remind yourself that Edmonton had to go on a 20-game losing streak with ten holes in the line-up and their best player traded to the Islanders to fall to the position they were in at the draft. That STILL didn't get them a top 5 pick. Now that Lowe has done a lot of work on the team (in this still hypothetical scenario adding Penner as well), do you honestly think that the Oilers first-rounder is going to land you one of those players?

I'm not saying that the Oilers are a lock to make the playoffs or anything, but if you think that they are top 5 material for the next draft you're either kidding yourself or basing your opinion on a bizarre spring campaign. I see the Oilers as a middle-of-the-pack team right now with a lot of players ready to bounce back from a hangover season where they had just lost one of the best players in the league. Subtract Niedermayer, Selanne and Penner from your lineup (replaced with Schneider, and, heh, Todd freakin' Bertuzzi) and we might actually draft earler with your pick than you do with ours.

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07-29-2007, 01:03 PM
  #52
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wow i can't wait until next year when burke lowballs getzlaf and perry and they hold out for rfa offer sheets.wait and see how many gm's come for those guys

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07-30-2007, 01:03 AM
  #53
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You're right that re-signing their own RFAs probably won't cost quite as much as offer sheets for Vanek and Penner. But don't think for a second that Smid/Schremp/Nilsson won't use the offer sheets to demand more than they would have without these offers to be re-signed. Those offers will be the comparables that they will use for negotiation/arbitration. Especially if they're on par or better than Penner, they'll say "I put in time for the organization, I deserve the money." I believe that the salaries Edmonton specifically will have to pay to keep their players will rise more than you expect.

And Torres' worth was decreased by his (relatively) poor season. A year younger than Penner means nothing, Penner's having less top level training should balance that out. Torres' contract was also before Vanek's offer sheet. We'll see what happens with whatever RFA you have next year.
Things like the nature of the team a player is in arbitration with are inadmissible as arguments in arbitration.

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08-01-2007, 08:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc View Post
Back to topic:

Ducks and Sabres fans can now make T-shirts that say "Kevin Lowe, You Stink!"
You can make your shirts about Lowe, We'll make one that says "Burke, you are a whiny little *****"

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08-01-2007, 09:43 PM
  #55
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wow i can't wait until next year when burke lowballs getzlaf and perry and they hold out for rfa offer sheets.wait and see how many gm's come for those guys
The Ducks will be fine regardless.
I doubt other GMs are as foolish as Lowe.

It's clear why Edmonton remains at the bottom of the league.

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08-01-2007, 10:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mooseduck View Post
The Ducks will be fine regardless.
I doubt other GMs are as foolish as Lowe.

It's clear why Edmonton remains at the bottom of the league.
Remains? I didn't even know they were there in the first place. Aren't we being just a tad bitter here?

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08-01-2007, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Man View Post
Remains? I didn't even know they were there in the first place. Aren't we being just a tad bitter here?
No that would be the Oiler fans who are still whining about Pronger and who say what's happening now is a case of what goes around comes around (as if they weren't highly compensated for Pronger).


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08-01-2007, 10:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by arinkrat View Post
No that would be the Oiler fans who are still whining about Pronger and what's happening now is a case of what goes around comes around.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but there IS a lot of bitterness on this board right now. And why shouldn't Oiler fans be bitter about Pronger? As opposed to Kevin Lowe, Pronger did things ethically wrong.

My beef is that there are so many Ducks (and other) fans suddenly making uninformed statements on Edmonton as a city and Edmonton as a team. Penner is a villain for signing a contract with another team as a free agent and Lowe is nowhere near the cup-winning genius that is Brian Burke (let's ignore the fact that Lowe was one game away from the Cup a year ago, having knocked the Ducks out on his way).

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08-01-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Man View Post
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but there IS a lot of bitterness on this board right now. And why shouldn't Oiler fans be bitter about Pronger? As opposed to Kevin Lowe, Pronger did things ethically wrong.

My beef is that there are so many Ducks (and other) fans suddenly making uninformed statements on Edmonton as a city and Edmonton as a team. Penner is a villain for signing a contract with another team as a free agent and Lowe is nowhere near the cup-winning genius that is Brian Burke (let's ignore the fact that Lowe was one game away from the Cup a year ago, having knocked the Ducks out on his way).
What happened between Lowe and Pronger was not the Ducks doing and Lowe approached Burke at the draft not the other way around. So it's not like Burke twisted Lowe's arm and pulled a fast one on him. The Ducks paid more than a fair amount for Pronger, as many Oiler fans pointed out at the time of the trade. You people are just bitter that Lupul didn't work out. Is that the Ducks fault?

Lowe was one win away from the Cup with a team that backed into the playoffs because Vancouver choked and then rode a hot goalie. Hardly the stuff of dynasties.

And if you see bitterness maybe it's because you come looking for it.

And get over yourself with judging Pronger's "ethics;" he didn't want to play in Edmonton for personal reasons and asked to be traded after the season ended. And Edmonton was compensated, rather well as I said before. BTW, where are the Ducks fans painting Penner as the villain?

Maybe you should get over your self-righteous attitude. Judging Pronger, judging Burke, judging Ducks fans.


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Old
08-01-2007, 11:06 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by arinkrat View Post
What happened between Lowe and Pronger was not the Ducks doing and Lowe approached Burke at the draft not the other way around. So it's not like Burke twisted Lowe's arm and pulled a fast one on him. The Ducks paid more than a fair amount for Pronger, as many Oiler fans pointed out at the time of the trade. You people are just bitter that Lupul didn't work out. Is that the Ducks fault?
I'm not sure why you brought up Pronger in the first place, since it really is a different issue altogether. I personally have never stated that Lupul sucking is the Ducks fault, but thank you for insinuating that I do. I'm not sure I agree about the "more than a fair amount" part either, but again, that's a whole different discussion.

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Lowe was one win away from the Cup with a team that backed into the playoffs because Vancouver choked and then rode a hot goalie. Hardly the stuff of dynasties.
The Oilers backed into the playoffs because they were without proper goaltending almost all season. Once Roloson started gelling in, the team felt much more comfortable and started winning. As in every cup-contending team, the Oilers had strong goaltending, but if you think that's the sole reason for their run you're kidding yourself (out of bitterness toward Lowe perhaps?). Lowe made all the right moves that year.

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And if you see bitterness maybe it's because you come looking for it.
No. No, I can't say I do.

The bottom line is that it's very saddening to see all this conjecture about Kevin Lowe, the Oilers and even Edmonton in general just because he's trying to acquire one of YOUR players. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that if it were Brian Burke throwing a sheet half this board would be boasting how ballsy he is (as I'm sure a lot of Oilers fans who support Lowe in this would cry like babies too if an Oiler would have been on the receiving end). You can be disappointed that Penner got an offer sheet, but a lot of fans (not just Ducks fans) are acting like a kid who just got deprived of his shovel in the sand-box.

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08-01-2007, 11:10 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by arinkrat View Post
What happened between Lowe and Pronger was not the Ducks doing and Lowe approached Burke at the draft not the other way around. So it's not like Burke twisted Lowe's arm and pulled a fast one on him. The Ducks paid more than a fair amount for Pronger, as many Oiler fans pointed out at the time of the trade. You people are just bitter that Lupul didn't work out. Is that the Ducks fault?

Lowe was one win away from the Cup with a team that backed into the playoffs because Vancouver choked and then rode a hot goalie. Hardly the stuff of dynasties.

And if you see bitterness maybe it's because you come looking for it.

And get over yourself with judging Pronger's "ethics;" he didn't want to play in Edmonton for personal reasons and asked to be traded after the season ended. And Edmonton was compensated, rather well as I said before. BTW, where are the Ducks fans painting Penner as the villain?

Maybe you should get over your self-righteous attitude. Judging Pronger, judging Burke, judging Ducks fans.

Most Oiler fans don't have a problem with the return, its how it all happened and the fact that one move set back this franchise back a couple years. And that is noones fault but Prongers for commiting to Oilers for 5 years. If you guys were to extend Getzlaf next year then after he takes to again the finals he demands a trade...you can bet there will be a lot of bitterness towards him as well by majority of duck fans.

Your rant comes pretty well-composed only I haven't heard fishman or anyone else unfairly judge Pronger, Burke, or duck fans so please save it.

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08-01-2007, 11:16 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HuMz View Post
Most Oiler fans don't have a problem with the return, its how it all happened and the fact that one move set back this franchise back a couple years. And that is noones fault but Prongers for commiting to Oilers for 5 years. If you guys were to extend Getzlaf next year then after he takes to again the finals he demands a trade...you can bet there will be a lot of bitterness towards him as well by majority of duck fans.

Your rant comes pretty well-composed only I haven't heard fishman or anyone else unfairly judge Pronger, Burke, or duck fans so please save it.
So by your reasoning, we Duck fans should consider Scott Niedermayer "unethical"? He committed to the Ducks for four years, but will likely only play two. Except that most Ducks fans aren't judging Scott this way. So you can please save it.

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08-01-2007, 11:19 PM
  #63
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So by your reasoning, we Duck fans should consider Scott Niedermayer "unethical"? He committed to the Ducks for four years, but will likely only play two. Except that most Ducks fans aren't judging Scott this way. So you can please save it.

Right, because player A at the tailend of his career retireing, and player B in his prime with a freshly signed contract demanding a trade is the same thing.

Not too mention Niedermayer hasn't even made a decision yet.

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Old
08-01-2007, 11:21 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by arinkrat View Post
So by your reasoning, we Duck fans should consider Scott Niedermayer "unethical"? He committed to the Ducks for four years, but will likely only play two. Except that most Ducks fans aren't judging Scott this way. So you can please save it.
Oh come on! If you're comparing Niedermayer's retiring to Pronger's trade demand you're way into the woods.

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08-01-2007, 11:24 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fish Man View Post
I'm not sure why you brought up Pronger in the first place, since it really is a different issue altogether. I personally have never stated that Lupul sucking is the Ducks fault, but thank you for insinuating that I do. I'm not sure I agree about the "more than a fair amount" part either, but again, that's a whole different discussion.
Yes it is a different issue, except that I find it pretty ironic that an Oiler fan comes onto the Ducks message board here on HF and calls Duck fans bitter without looking in the mirror. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Two former first round draft choices, two future firsts and a future second is more than a fair amount of compensation.



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The Oilers backed into the playoffs because they were without proper goaltending almost all season. Once Roloson started gelling in, the team felt much more comfortable and started winning. As in every cup-contending team, the Oilers had strong goaltending, but if you think that's the sole reason for their run you're kidding yourself (out of bitterness toward Lowe perhaps?). Lowe made all the right moves that year.
What bitterness towards Lowe? If you didn't have a hot goalie, you probably wouldn't have gotten far. It doesn't mean you had a great team. Ducks fans heard the same thing in 2003.

Quote:
The bottom line is that it's very saddening to see all this conjecture about Kevin Lowe, the Oilers and even Edmonton in general just because he's trying to acquire one of YOUR players. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that if it were Brian Burke throwing a sheet half this board would be boasting how ballsy he is (as I'm sure a lot of Oilers fans who support Lowe in this would cry like babies too if an Oiler would have been on the receiving end). You can be disappointed that Penner got an offer sheet, but a lot of fans (not just Ducks fans) are acting like a kid who just got deprived of his shovel in the sand-box.
What's conjecture? It's only sad to you because you are an Oiler fan who has a blind loyalty to Lowe.


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Old
08-01-2007, 11:26 PM
  #66
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Right, because player A at the tailend of his career retireing, and player B in his prime with a freshly signed contract demanding a trade is the same thing.

Not too mention Niedermayer hasn't even made a decision yet.
Tail end? Scott just turned 34. Pronger is one year younger. Did I say Scott has made a decision? It was a hypothetical.

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08-01-2007, 11:28 PM
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Oh come on! If you're comparing Niedermayer's retiring to Pronger's trade demand you're way into the woods.
I think it's the players' lives and the players' decision in both cases; I see that as being consistent. Your way of judging people isn't consistent. What's wrong with asking for a trade if his family situation is becoming a problem? Or do you think he should chose the Oilers over his family? The Ducks lost two players, both during the middle of the playoff runs, due to family issues. Granted they weren't of Pronger's calibre, but did people whine about it and carry on the way you Oiler fans do? No.


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Old
08-01-2007, 11:31 PM
  #68
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join an allaince with buffalo

why, you guys have something they do not, and may not get for a long time. your team has won the stanley cup. the end.

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08-01-2007, 11:55 PM
  #69
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Right, because player A at the tailend of his career retireing, and player B in his prime with a freshly signed contract demanding a trade is the same thing.

Not too mention Niedermayer hasn't even made a decision yet.
I've stayed out of this thread for the most part, but I must comment on this post. This post made no since... Scotty and Chris are what a year or so apart in age?? I'm not saying the situations are the same, but they are more a like then people think. Pronger signed a long term deal, took the team to the finals, and then asked for a trade for personal reasons... Scotty signed a long term deal, took the team to the finals, afterwards says he's considering retiring for personal reasons.

Now, I am not saying the situations are the same, because they are not, Pronger leaving like that would have made me more bitter as well. HOWEVER, they are not as far off as people think. I wonder if the Oilers would have won the cup, would Oiler fans be as bitter? I think they would still be upset, but just not as upset.

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08-01-2007, 11:57 PM
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I think it's the players' lives and the players' decision in both cases; I see that as being consistent. Your way of judging people isn't consistent. What's wrong with asking for a trade if his family situation is becoming a problem? Or do you think he should chose the Oilers over his family? The Ducks lost two players, both during the middle of the playoff runs, due to family issues. Granted they weren't of Pronger's calibre, but did people whine about it and carry on the way you Oiler fans do? No.
I really don't want to turn this into a belated Pronger debate, but there are things that you have to realise.

First off, Pronger and his wife decided to commit to a five-year deal with the Oilers after a ten-minute chat. In hindsight, that suggests they simply took the offer that the Blues couldn't give them and felt they could jump ship if they didn't like Edmonton.

Secondly, by leaking the trade demand to the media he put Lowe in a hole. If he had handled it more professionally, the Oilers might have been able to do what Atlanta could do with Heatley. I personally have never said I think the Oilers got a good return on Pronger and you're logic is flawed when you justify the return. If all the GMs around the league didn't know Lowe was absolutely handcuffed the return might have been much better. This is also the single most important reason for the ire of the Oilers fans; the way he handled it more than why he did it, which makes it very different from the Niedermayer situation.

Thirdly, Scott Niedermayer just won the Stanley Cup with his brother at the age of 34. He's basically done it all and I can see how he could feel inclined to retire. The Pronger situation is totally different (for reasons stated above) and claiming otherwise is grasping at straws to defend one of your players.

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08-02-2007, 12:44 AM
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I really don't want to turn this into a belated Pronger debate, but there are things that you have to realise.

First off, Pronger and his wife decided to commit to a five-year deal with the Oilers after a ten-minute chat. In hindsight, that suggests they simply took the offer that the Blues couldn't give them and felt they could jump ship if they didn't like Edmonton.

Secondly, by leaking the trade demand to the media he put Lowe in a hole. If he had handled it more professionally, the Oilers might have been able to do what Atlanta could do with Heatley. I personally have never said I think the Oilers got a good return on Pronger and you're logic is flawed when you justify the return. If all the GMs around the league didn't know Lowe was absolutely handcuffed the return might have been much better. This is also the single most important reason for the ire of the Oilers fans; the way he handled it more than why he did it, which makes it very different from the Niedermayer situation.

Thirdly, Scott Niedermayer just won the Stanley Cup with his brother at the age of 34. He's basically done it all and I can see how he could feel inclined to retire. The Pronger situation is totally different (for reasons stated above) and claiming otherwise is grasping at straws to defend one of your players.
Oh, I don't have problem with Scott contemplating retirement; not at all. I'm thankful that he signed with the Ducks in the first place and that I had the pleasure of watching him play close up for two years, and of course for him leading the Ducks to the Stanley Cup. And I'm also happy for him that he and Rob were able to win the Cup together. I thank him and wish him well.

And while I might not wish Pronger well if he left the Ducks or throw him a party, if he chose his family over the Ducks, I wouldn't be bitter about it either, and I certainly wouldn't do things like vandalize his furniture or spread vicious gossip about his personal life as some Oiler fans did. That's a pretty petty reaction. There are more important things than hockey and family is certainly one of them. I'm not grasping at straws to defend one of "my players." I think players personal lives are their own business. And I'm not going to judge them based on decisions they make due to personal reasons.

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08-02-2007, 01:38 AM
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Oh, I don't have problem with Scott contemplating retirement; not at all. I'm thankful that he signed with the Ducks in the first place and that I had the pleasure of watching him play close up for two years, and of course for him leading the Ducks to the Stanley Cup. And I'm also happy for him that he and Rob were able to win the Cup together. I thank him and wish him well.

And while I might not wish Pronger well if he left the Ducks or throw him a party, if he chose his family over the Ducks, I wouldn't be bitter about it either, and I certainly wouldn't do things like vandalize his furniture or spread vicious gossip about his personal life as some Oiler fans did. That's a pretty petty reaction. There are more important things than hockey and family is certainly one of them. I'm not grasping at straws to defend one of "my players." I think players personal lives are their own business. And I'm not going to judge them based on decisions they make due to personal reasons.
Read my post again and you'll see that I didn't suggest Pronger choose his profession over his family. Whatever...

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08-02-2007, 01:51 AM
  #73
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Read my post again and you'll see that I didn't suggest Pronger choose his profession over his family. Whatever...
Everyone should consider :

Burke + Samueli = Stanley Cup (2 years)
Not much is going to change until Burke replaces Gary.

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08-02-2007, 03:55 AM
  #74
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I really don't want to turn this into a belated Pronger debate, but there are things that you have to realise.

First off, Pronger and his wife decided to commit to a five-year deal with the Oilers after a ten-minute chat. In hindsight, that suggests they simply took the offer that the Blues couldn't give them and felt they could jump ship if they didn't like Edmonton.

Secondly, by leaking the trade demand to the media he put Lowe in a hole. If he had handled it more professionally, the Oilers might have been able to do what Atlanta could do with Heatley. I personally have never said I think the Oilers got a good return on Pronger and you're logic is flawed when you justify the return. If all the GMs around the league didn't know Lowe was absolutely handcuffed the return might have been much better. This is also the single most important reason for the ire of the Oilers fans; the way he handled it more than why he did it, which makes it very different from the Niedermayer situation.

Thirdly, Scott Niedermayer just won the Stanley Cup with his brother at the age of 34. He's basically done it all and I can see how he could feel inclined to retire. The Pronger situation is totally different (for reasons stated above) and claiming otherwise is grasping at straws to defend one of your players.
I understand where you are coming from, trust me I would be pissed too, but you're acting as if the Pronger situation hurt you much more then this Niedermayer situation hurts us. That's bogus. Yes, Scotty may have done everything, and there might be reasons for him to retire, but the fact is we signed him to a multi year deal. When you sign a player of that calibre to a position, you don't just adjust your lineup to it, it changes the way you draft, sign FA's, etc. Yes we won the cup, however, when you're counting on a player of that calibre to play for your team, much like Pronger with the Oilers, it is very difficult for the team to adjust when he just decides to leave the team unexpectingly. Could Pronger have handled it better? Sure. Could he have handled it worse? Absolutely. People give Scotty the benefit of the doubt because he's had such a great career, and I agree. The day we signed Scotty was the day teams started taking the Ducks seriously. We weren't a Cinderella team anymore, we were the real deal the day we signed him. However, the way he is leaving is very similar to the way Pronger is leaving. If Scotty retires, both teams will have lost a star defensmen that was expected to play for their team for a couple of more years. Again, I will say that I would be more bitter about the Pronger situation, but the situations are extremely simialr in the way they affect the team. To say that they are way different is wrong. Duck fans are just take Nieds leaving better because he won us a cup and because we have Pronger, Schneider, and Beauchemin in case he doesn't come back.

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08-02-2007, 08:20 AM
  #75
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oh come on, losing Penner is not the end of the world. He's good but he's not a 4 million dollar a year player. Let the Oiler's take him, there going to finish 10 in the league this year.
I would take that! 10th in the league means playoffs baby!!!!

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